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Thread: Things not spoken into existence.

  1. #11
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Hello again Sparko. Word made flesh... Yeshua / Jesus... a man in whom the fullness of God (Father) dwelt bodily. When the Son spoke it was God speaking. "...I speak nothing on my own but only what I have learned from my Father...". And, "...in these last days God (Father) has spoken to us by His Son. So these are the testimonies the Son gave of the Father... and the Father gave of His Son.
    the WORD made flesh. you said the WORD of God was literally God speaking. His voice. so you must believe his voice became Jesus.

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Getting warm Sparko. If it is God (Father) speaking to us by His Son is it not the Father's voice we are hearing? If it is not where is faith if in fact it comes by hearing... and hearing by the Word of God? When the faith of Abraham was made complete when he offered Isaac was he justified by your idea of Logos? ...or did God say, "...because you have obeyed my voice..."?

    Just as we are of our fathers and mothers according to the flesh, so too is Yeshua of His Father and mother according to the Spirit. "...and the Holy Spirit fell upon Mary and she became with child...". We, living souls after the pattern of Adam. He, a life giving Spirit after the Word which called things that be not as though they were... which became in the fullness of time. Through faith we obtain unto the the Spirit of adoption so that we know we will be like Him when we shall see Him as He is. The same Spirit who begat our Lord is given us as a guarantee. Right?

  3. #13
    tWebber
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    ...ok, I'll expound upon the OP.

    What it means that the first scene and what is presented therein exist without Word is first this: Mediation and the means thereof require the existence of two parties. Hence, the first things were bought forth prior to the speaking of God. Where no ear exists speaking loses its place, so to speak. Especially in the context of creation since "omniscience" belongs to the speaker. What could one who "knows all" possibly say to himself?

    Now, in full disclosure I am not a Trinitarian... but neither do I deny the Deity of Christ. I see this instead: To illustrate imagine there is a sheet of paper in front of you. You cut it in half. One half represents infinite God, the other finite creation. Now, push one half into the other so that the edges overlap a half an inch or so. The overlapping portion represents to me "mediation" between two sides that would otherwise have nothing in common... aka, "the Word". And since in this case one side is God and the other, at first, is nothing yet, the Word would necessarily be the fullness of God in a form that can relate to things that are not. Get it... sort of?
    Last edited by Jeff; 11-24-2018 at 09:42 PM.

  4. #14
    tWebber
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    Installment 2

    Understanding, then, that to make an infinite God relatable to a finite creation a bridge must be established that tethers the two sides together... and before that, there must be put into place those things that the new side will consist of. Hence, "...and the earth was empty and void, and darkness covered the face of the deep, and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters...", are presented first in order followed by God speaking "...the Word..." towards those first things.

    Next, how the Word of God, being mediation between what is God and what is not, relates to both sides. Keeping with the overlapping papers analogy, the overlap (Word) belongs to God first as a vehicle by which He will be revealed to His creation. Yet, this same vehicle will belong to creation since creation, and not God, is in need of it. Hence, "...all things are upheld by the Word of God's command...".

    Enough for now. One small thought at a time. Baby steps...

  5. #15
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Getting warm Sparko. If it is God (Father) speaking to us by His Son is it not the Father's voice we are hearing? If it is not where is faith if in fact it comes by hearing... and hearing by the Word of God? When the faith of Abraham was made complete when he offered Isaac was he justified by your idea of Logos? ...or did God say, "...because you have obeyed my voice..."?

    Just as we are of our fathers and mothers according to the flesh, so too is Yeshua of His Father and mother according to the Spirit. "...and the Holy Spirit fell upon Mary and she became with child...". We, living souls after the pattern of Adam. He, a life giving Spirit after the Word which called things that be not as though they were... which became in the fullness of time. Through faith we obtain unto the the Spirit of adoption so that we know we will be like Him when we shall see Him as He is. The same Spirit who begat our Lord is given us as a guarantee. Right?
    And yet we have the Father speaking to Jesus the Son in the bible. So the Word is not God's voice.

    And there is nothing that says God has to use his voice to create with. Him saying "let there be light" doesn't mean that is the actual cause of the light, it could just be his comment as he created the light. If I say "let there be light" and flip the light switch, did I cause the light by my voice?

  6. #16
    tWebber
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    Hey Sparko. You say the Word is not God's voice. I would say God's voice is always contained in and always proceeds from what is the Word spoken of as being "in the beginning". There in the Seven Day account it is presented as the voice of God speaking. Important distinction. When viewing "the beginning" one must accept how it is presented in order properly discern what is being revealed there.

    I do get your point, however. Contained in the Word is the fullness of God in all of its glory. So every act of God speaks a word... and every command, a revelation. For instance, when God commanded Abraham to offer Isaac the Word that he heard was "...Abraham, I can raise the dead...". Abraham's obedience spoke also, saying "...yes, I believe..." (the Word of God not returning to Him void). Can you hear it? There is the voice of God... right there.

    So, when God said "...let there be light...", it wasn't as if "poof" and light was. No... He was sending Light of Himself into that which was not Him... that darkness covering the face of the deep. As if from "here to there". Hence my claim. The Word is the fullness of God interfacing with His creation in order to create a people for Himself through a Son He would beget in the fullness of time. Yeshua / Jesus, our Lord and our God.
    Last edited by Jeff; 11-27-2018 at 12:37 AM.

  7. #17
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Hey Sparko. You say the Word is not God's voice. I would say God's voice is always contained in and always proceeds from what is the Word spoken of as being "in the beginning". There in the Seven Day account it is presented as the voice of God speaking. Important distinction. When viewing "the beginning" one must accept how it is presented in order properly discern what is being revealed there.

    I do get your point, however. Contained in the Word is the fullness of God in all of its glory. So every act of God speaks a word... and every command, a revelation. For instance, when God commanded Abraham to offer Isaac the Word that he heard was "...Abraham, I can raise the dead...". Abraham's obedience spoke also, saying "...yes, I believe..." (the Word of God not returning to Him void). Can you hear it? There is the voice of God... right there.

    So, when God said "...let there be light...", it wasn't as if "poof" and light was. No... He was sending Light of Himself into that which was not Him... that darkness covering the face of the deep. As if from "here to there". Hence my claim. The Word is the fullness of God interfacing with His creation in order to create a people for Himself through a Son He would beget in the fullness of time. Yeshua / Jesus, our Lord and our God.
    The Word is a being, not a voice. HE (the Son) is the exact representation of the Father and like you said earlier, he says and does what the Father says. But it is not talking about the same thing when the bible talks about God speaking in Genesis 1.

    True, the bible does say that all things were created by the Son. But as God IS a trinity, all three persons were involved in creation: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However God creates, whether by fiat or by speaking things into existence, we are never told. That is a mystery. You are taking something NOT said in Genesis one, looking at that through the lens of your preconceived notion about what the "word" is and coming to an erroneous conclusion.


    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    [It doesn't say HOW he created them. It could have been by speaking them into existence as far as anyone knows, or he could have just willed them to be.]

    And

    we know the Son is the Word, right?
    John 1:14 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    and we know that everything was created by the Word, right?
    John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    So the Heavens and the Earth in Gen 1:1 were created by the Word also.

  8. #18
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Jeff, may I suggest you research the topic of literal and figurative interpretation of the Bible just a bit?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  9. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  10. #19
    tWebber
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    Hello Sparko. As a non-Trinitarian I perceive different lines than you. I perceive that all sons are men. No man in the beginning until Adam #1. However, I also perceive that all proceeding from the Speaker in the Seven Day account through the First Day existed in Yeshua inwardly from conception. I will explain this in detail as I continue to offer my thoughts on the subject incrementally in this thread. I have three major lines. One between invisible true God and His Word. Another between the conclusion of the First Day and beginning of the Second where all things begin to be made from the waters. And another at the fall of man... everything prior being "before the foundations of the world", ie., after which procreation began.

    Here's one of the places where trinitarians loose me. On one hand it's a mystery that we will never completely understand, on the other the "...we are Borg, you must assimilate, resistance is futile..." stance... even creating a new command as if those found in disobedience to the notion will burn in flames for eternity (Ya... I'm also an annihilationist). So my thoughts on this subject will be as if one despising mystery and by faith overcoming my Lord so that His own work be revived in our day and that He will make known. If there be things sealed up they will be unsealed. I will not relent until they are. This is what I know... that my Holy One knows all things and has said "...ask and you shall receive...". I have asked and shall therefore receive. My Lord has spoken it... it shall be so. So, I will speak what is being formed in me without shame or fear. ...cuz I know His promises and that He is faithful and true to keep them. By faith I do see the words of the prophets of old and those things that have not yet come to pass. And so I will work to vindicate them by calling those things that be not as though they were. Just as I see my Father doing.
    Last edited by Jeff; 11-28-2018 at 12:48 AM.

  11. #20
    tWebber
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    Hello Cow Poke. At the end of everything figurative there is laid bare a literal truth. My view anyway...

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