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Unorthodox Theology 201 Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.

The second purpose will be for threads on subjects, which although the thread starter has no issue with the above doctrines, the subject matter is so very outside the bounds of normative Christian doctrine totally within the leadership's discretion that it is placed here. In so doing, no judgment or offense is intended to be placed on the belief of said person in the above-doctrines. In this case "unorthodox" is used in a much looser sense of "outside the norms" - Examples of such threads would be pro-polygamy, pro-drug use, proponents of gay Christian churches, proponents of abortion.

The third purpose is for persons who wish to have input from any and all who would claim the title of Christian even on subjects that would be considered "orthodox."

The philosophy behind this area was to recognize that there are persons who would identify themselves as Christian and thus seem out of place in the Comparative Religions Forum, but yet in keeping with our committment here to certain basic core Christian doctrines. Also, it allows threads to be started by those who would want to still be identified as Christian with a particular belief that while not denying an essential is of such a nature that the discussion on that issue belongs in this section or for threads by persons who wish such a non-restricted discussion.


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  • #16
    Hey Sparko. You say the Word is not God's voice. I would say God's voice is always contained in and always proceeds from what is the Word spoken of as being "in the beginning". There in the Seven Day account it is presented as the voice of God speaking. Important distinction. When viewing "the beginning" one must accept how it is presented in order properly discern what is being revealed there.

    I do get your point, however. Contained in the Word is the fullness of God in all of its glory. So every act of God speaks a word... and every command, a revelation. For instance, when God commanded Abraham to offer Isaac the Word that he heard was "...Abraham, I can raise the dead...". Abraham's obedience spoke also, saying "...yes, I believe..." (the Word of God not returning to Him void). Can you hear it? There is the voice of God... right there.

    So, when God said "...let there be light...", it wasn't as if "poof" and light was. No... He was sending Light of Himself into that which was not Him... that darkness covering the face of the deep. As if from "here to there". Hence my claim. The Word is the fullness of God interfacing with His creation in order to create a people for Himself through a Son He would beget in the fullness of time. Yeshua / Jesus, our Lord and our God.
    Last edited by Jeff; 11-27-2018, 02:37 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Jeff View Post
      Hey Sparko. You say the Word is not God's voice. I would say God's voice is always contained in and always proceeds from what is the Word spoken of as being "in the beginning". There in the Seven Day account it is presented as the voice of God speaking. Important distinction. When viewing "the beginning" one must accept how it is presented in order properly discern what is being revealed there.

      I do get your point, however. Contained in the Word is the fullness of God in all of its glory. So every act of God speaks a word... and every command, a revelation. For instance, when God commanded Abraham to offer Isaac the Word that he heard was "...Abraham, I can raise the dead...". Abraham's obedience spoke also, saying "...yes, I believe..." (the Word of God not returning to Him void). Can you hear it? There is the voice of God... right there.

      So, when God said "...let there be light...", it wasn't as if "poof" and light was. No... He was sending Light of Himself into that which was not Him... that darkness covering the face of the deep. As if from "here to there". Hence my claim. The Word is the fullness of God interfacing with His creation in order to create a people for Himself through a Son He would beget in the fullness of time. Yeshua / Jesus, our Lord and our God.
      The Word is a being, not a voice. HE (the Son) is the exact representation of the Father and like you said earlier, he says and does what the Father says. But it is not talking about the same thing when the bible talks about God speaking in Genesis 1.

      True, the bible does say that all things were created by the Son. But as God IS a trinity, all three persons were involved in creation: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However God creates, whether by fiat or by speaking things into existence, we are never told. That is a mystery. You are taking something NOT said in Genesis one, looking at that through the lens of your preconceived notion about what the "word" is and coming to an erroneous conclusion.


      In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
      [It doesn't say HOW he created them. It could have been by speaking them into existence as far as anyone knows, or he could have just willed them to be.]

      And

      we know the Son is the Word, right?
      John 1:14 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

      and we know that everything was created by the Word, right?
      John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

      So the Heavens and the Earth in Gen 1:1 were created by the Word also.

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      • #18
        Jeff, may I suggest you research the topic of literal and figurative interpretation of the Bible just a bit?
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • #19
          Hello Sparko. As a non-Trinitarian I perceive different lines than you. I perceive that all sons are men. No man in the beginning until Adam #1. However, I also perceive that all proceeding from the Speaker in the Seven Day account through the First Day existed in Yeshua inwardly from conception. I will explain this in detail as I continue to offer my thoughts on the subject incrementally in this thread. I have three major lines. One between invisible true God and His Word. Another between the conclusion of the First Day and beginning of the Second where all things begin to be made from the waters. And another at the fall of man... everything prior being "before the foundations of the world", ie., after which procreation began.

          Here's one of the places where trinitarians loose me. On one hand it's a mystery that we will never completely understand, on the other the "...we are Borg, you must assimilate, resistance is futile..." stance... even creating a new command as if those found in disobedience to the notion will burn in flames for eternity (Ya... I'm also an annihilationist). So my thoughts on this subject will be as if one despising mystery and by faith overcoming my Lord so that His own work be revived in our day and that He will make known. If there be things sealed up they will be unsealed. I will not relent until they are. This is what I know... that my Holy One knows all things and has said "...ask and you shall receive...". I have asked and shall therefore receive. My Lord has spoken it... it shall be so. So, I will speak what is being formed in me without shame or fear. ...cuz I know His promises and that He is faithful and true to keep them. By faith I do see the words of the prophets of old and those things that have not yet come to pass. And so I will work to vindicate them by calling those things that be not as though they were. Just as I see my Father doing.
          Last edited by Jeff; 11-28-2018, 02:48 AM.

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          • #20
            Hello Cow Poke. At the end of everything figurative there is laid bare a literal truth. My view anyway...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Jeff View Post
              Hello Cow Poke. At the end of everything figurative there is laid bare a literal truth. My view anyway...
              My suggestion stands, my friend.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Jeff, if the Word became flesh (Jesus) then the Word existed as a person before he became Flesh. The Word is the Son.

                The bible also says that the Word is God, and it says that the Word created EVERYTHING. So that would include Adam and the Heavens and the Earth. Your question in the OP doesn't even make sense, much less your claim that the Son is just a man and Adam was created first.

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                • #23
                  Hello Sparko. It is written that Jesus = a man... in whom... the fullness of God... dwelt bodily. The Word is this fullness. Of whom? ...of God. Who is the Son? The man in whom this fullness dwelt. These are One in the fullness of time, not before. The Word made flesh is the Son. The Word in the beginning is the fullness of God. The very God speaking in the creation account.

                  Further. The OP is literally true to the account as it is presented. It just doesn't fit the preferred narrative.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                    Hello Sparko. It is written that Jesus = a man... in whom... the fullness of God... dwelt bodily. The Word is this fullness. Of whom? ...of God. Who is the Son? The man in whom this fullness dwelt. These are One in the fullness of time, not before. The Word made flesh is the Son. The Word in the beginning is the fullness of God. The very God speaking in the creation account.

                    Further. The OP is literally true to the account as it is presented. It just doesn't fit the preferred narrative.
                    So you think Jesus is a god then?

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                    • #25
                      A God? Nope... impossible. No god beside God. Jesus said that His Father (and ours) is the only true God. So, if the Father is the only true God and Jesus is not [a god]... that only leaves one other possibility. Can you see it, Sparko? Tell me, what did the flashing fire pot in Abraham's dream represent... and how did Abraham obtain such a gift from the One true God? What work of faith was God responding to? When you see it... do the same as Abraham did.
                      Last edited by Jeff; 12-01-2018, 12:41 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Let's see --- who to believe.....

                        Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                        A God? Nope... impossible. No god beside God. Jesus said that His Father (and ours) is the only true God. ....
                        Or Jesus...

                        I and my Father are one.
                        And lest we try to minimize the importance of what He was saying, His intended audience believed so strongly that He was claiming equality with God that they picked up stones to kill Him...

                        31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.


                        Whereby....

                        32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?


                        And they made very clear what they understood Jesus to be saying...

                        33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                        • #27
                          Hello Cow Poke. "...this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent...".

                          Yes, the Father (only true God) and His Son (expressed image) are One.

                          Who is in the image of God? God said in the beginning "...let us make [man] in our image and in our likeness...". Jesus is the fulfillment of this passage. Also the fulfillment of this, "...and let him have dominion...". Where is Jesus now? Seated at God's right hand having all power and authority in Heaven and Earth.

                          Jesus, the Son... a man in whom the fullness of God dwelt bodily... being in very nature God, did not think equality with God something to be grasped... or to think it robbery. Now, it would be quite strange for God to think such a thing. But for a man to think this?... glorious! In short, the express image of God being also a begotten Son is equal to God. This by virtue of his Oneness with the only true God, his Father and ours.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                            Hello Cow Poke. "...this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent...".

                            Yes, the Father (only true God) and His Son (expressed image) are One.

                            Who is in the image of God? God said in the beginning "...let us make [man] in our image and in our likeness...". Jesus is the fulfillment of this passage. Also the fulfillment of this, "...and let him have dominion...". Where is Jesus now? Seated at God's right hand having all power and authority in Heaven and Earth.

                            Jesus, the Son... a man in whom the fullness of God dwelt bodily... being in very nature God, did not think equality with God something to be grasped... or to think it robbery. Now, it would be quite strange for God to think such a thing. But for a man to think this?... glorious! In short, the express image of God being also a begotten Son is equal to God. This by virtue of his Oneness with the only true God, his Father and ours.
                            Thanks, Jeff, but I'll go with what Jesus Himself said.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                            • #29
                              I led with a prayer that Jesus himself prayed to the Father. Jesus himself said that He is the only true God.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                                I led with a prayer that Jesus himself prayed to the Father. Jesus himself said that He is the only true God.
                                Yet you miss the fact He claimed to be God both explicitly and implicitly.

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