US federal climate change report warns of threat to US economy and lives

[Bill the Cat]

... and why 50% of those guns are owned by 3% of the population....

Considering only 23% of Americans even OWN guns, and experts say the most devoted 20 percent of a product’s consumers typically account for 80 percent of its sales, why is that at all surprising?

[Littlejoe]

Oh I know, Sparko. Any talk about guns sends the gun-right activists back to the stores. It explains why gun manufacturing has gone from 2M per year to almost 12M per year in the U.S., why there are more guns than people in the U.S. (at 12 guns per 10 people, a rate higher than any other country on the planet), and why 50% of those guns are owned by 3% of the population.

But I don't see that fear that it will make gun advocates buy more guns is a rational basis for NOT talking about gun control. If that's the argument you're making, it's not a good one.

What's never included in the numbers are gun collectors who have say 1000 guns from the Revolutionary war era through today. Then there are gun collectors who just like to buy them...like some people like to buy stamps, or coins or vintage banks...I own around 9 guns: 3 pistols, 2 deer rifles, a .22 that was my dad's, and 3 shotguns. My oldest son lives with me and he has 2 pistols and 2 deer rifles, one of them is a vintage rifle from his maternal great-grandfather. So, quoting "gun ownership" facts are misleading as you can see. I don't hunt deer with a pistol or a shotgun, likewise, I don't hunt turkey, pheasant, quail or other birds with a deer rifle. People who don't hunt or own guns simply don't seem to think it through IMO.

[Sparko]

What's never included in the numbers are gun collectors who have say 1000 guns from the Revolutionary war era through today. Then there are gun collectors who just like to buy them...like some people like to buy stamps, or coins or vintage banks...I own around 9 guns: 3 pistols, 2 deer rifles, a .22 that was my dad's, and 3 shotguns. My oldest son lives with me and he has 2 pistols and 2 deer rifles, one of them is a vintage rifle from his maternal great-grandfather. So, quoting "gun ownership" facts are misleading as you can see. I don't hunt deer with a pistol or a shotgun, likewise, I don't hunt turkey, pheasant, quail or other birds with a deer rifle. People who don't hunt or own guns simply don't seem to think it through IMO.

And the Zombie Apocalypse!

My friend has about a dozen guns and whole stacks of ammunition boxes. I told him I am coming over his house when the zombies come.




...I used to think the Z.A. was just science fiction, but then they elected AOC.

[carpedm9587]

Just responding to your trope about the NRA. The liberals are the biggest gun salesmen in America. If they would just leave the 2nd amendment alone, I bet gun sales would drop! They are creating a demand by trying to create a shortage. Marketing 101.

That's a mighty broad brush, there, Sparko! But your argument is that those of us who want better gun control should stop talking about a dearly held value because the opposition will respond by buying more guns. It's kind of a non-starter. Indeed, it's a bit of a hostage-taking model, if you think about it.

Personally, I want to ensure that we are taking the same kinds of care that we take with cars with guns. I want laws that work to keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them as much as possible, and hold those who do have them accountable for their use and storage. I'm not going to change that position because someone threatens to buy more guns if I talk about it, and tries to blame me for the proliferation of guns because I talk about it. The proliferation of guns is due to one thing: people buying guns.

[carpedm9587]

Considering only 23% of Americans even OWN guns, and experts say the most devoted 20 percent of a product’s consumers typically account for 80 percent of its sales, why is that at all surprising?

I don't believe I said it was "surprising." I am familiar with the 80/20 rule of consumerism. In the gun world, however, it means that the average "avid" gun owner owns 20 firearms. Collectors, I can understand. But 9.7M people in this country owning 20 guns each is just plain scary. When you add that most violence due to guns is not done by the gun's owner (so many of these are finding their way out of the gun owner's control) and statistically ownership of a gun increases the chances that the owner (or a member of their family) will be harmed or killed by that/those guns, and you have a pretty ugly situation.

We need reasonable gun controls. Mandatory training and/or testing (as with cars). Mandatory inspections (as with cars). A national/state registry (as with cars). And laws concerning responsibility for misuse or lack of due diligence (as with cars).

[carpedm9587]

What's never included in the numbers are gun collectors who have say 1000 guns from the Revolutionary war era through today. Then there are gun collectors who just like to buy them...like some people like to buy stamps, or coins or vintage banks...I own around 9 guns: 3 pistols, 2 deer rifles, a .22 that was my dad's, and 3 shotguns. My oldest son lives with me and he has 2 pistols and 2 deer rifles, one of them is a vintage rifle from his maternal great-grandfather. So, quoting "gun ownership" facts are misleading as you can see. I don't hunt deer with a pistol or a shotgun, likewise, I don't hunt turkey, pheasant, quail or other birds with a deer rifle. People who don't hunt or own guns simply don't seem to think it through IMO.

There are not 9.7 million "gun collectors" in the U.S. LJ. But if you have data suggesting otherwise, by all means, produce it. Otherwise, this is anecdotal assumption. The fact is that there are 9.7M people with an average of 20 guns each in the U.S. Both of you have cited examples of people who have 1-2 dozen guns. The average is 20 for those 9.75M people, so that's right in the ballpark.

[Bill the Cat]

There are not 9.7 million "gun collectors" in the U.S. LJ. But if you have data suggesting otherwise, by all means, produce it. Otherwise, this is anecdotal assumption. The fact is that there are 9.7M people with an average of 20 guns each in the U.S. Both of you have cited examples of people who have 1-2 dozen guns. The average is 20 for those 9.75M people, so that's right in the ballpark.

These super-owners include collectors with elaborately curated selections of historical firearms, serious hunters, firearms instructors, gunsmiths, people who love tinkering with and customizing their firearms, and Americans worried about feeding or defending their families in the wake of a disaster scenario. But you don’t have to be prepping for the breakdown of civilization to end up with 17 guns. In fact, gun enthusiasts say, it’s surprisingly easy to get to 17 – especially because many Americans inherit multiple guns from their parents and grandparents.

[Roy]

And the Zombie Apocalypse!

My friend has about a dozen guns and whole stacks of ammunition boxes. I told him I am coming over his house when the zombies come.

That's a great way to get shot...

[Sparko]

That's a mighty broad brush, there, Sparko! But your argument is that those of us who want better gun control should stop talking about a dearly held value because the opposition will respond by buying more guns. It's kind of a non-starter. Indeed, it's a bit of a hostage-taking model, if you think about it.

Personally, I want to ensure that we are taking the same kinds of care that we take with cars with guns. I want laws that work to keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them as much as possible, and hold those who do have them accountable for their use and storage. I'm not going to change that position because someone threatens to buy more guns if I talk about it, and tries to blame me for the proliferation of guns because I talk about it. The proliferation of guns is due to one thing: people buying guns.

I am not telling you to stop doing anything. I am just informing you that the harder you try to regulate guns, the more you are going to motivate conservatives to collect more guns. Do with that what you will.

You know most gun owners never even heard of bump stocks until the Las Vegas shooter? And then they decided they are going to ban bump stocks and the sales went through the roof. People are buying them left and right. People who never even heard of them before. Even though they are supposed to get rid of them by March. They are buying them by the boatload. And probably going to hide them.

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/04/69128...-slowing-sales

[Sparko]

These super-owners include collectors with elaborately curated selections of historical firearms, serious hunters, firearms instructors, gunsmiths, people who love tinkering with and customizing their firearms, and Americans worried about feeding or defending their families in the wake of a disaster scenario. But you don’t have to be prepping for the breakdown of civilization to end up with 17 guns. In fact, gun enthusiasts say, it’s surprisingly easy to get to 17 – especially because many Americans inherit multiple guns from their parents and grandparents.

It's like computers. People only need ONE computer right? But they usually end up with one desktop, a laptop, a tablet, a phone, maybe book reader, oh and the kids need their own phones and computers and tablets.

I have a 9mm. I use it for target shooting and keep it ready for home protection. But I would like to get a 380 to conceal carry because they are small. And then I want a shotgun. And maybe an AR-15 just for fun and target shooting....

[Sparko]

That's a great way to get shot...

i will bring bacon.

[carpedm9587]

These super-owners include collectors with elaborately curated selections of historical firearms, serious hunters, firearms instructors, gunsmiths, people who love tinkering with and customizing their firearms, and Americans worried about feeding or defending their families in the wake of a disaster scenario. But you don’t have to be prepping for the breakdown of civilization to end up with 17 guns. In fact, gun enthusiasts say, it’s surprisingly easy to get to 17 – especially because many Americans inherit multiple guns from their parents and grandparents.

Again...I have no problem with "gun collectors" as long as the weapons are being safely stored and protected. In fact, I have no problem with anyone owning a gun, if they can pass a background test (that needs to be periodically renewed), maintain a safe storage environment, have been formally trained and licensed to own a gun (a license that should require regular renewal), and the guns are registered in a state/national database. I also think we need due diligence laws, and I am 100% behind red flag laws.

[carpedm9587]

I am not telling you to stop doing anything. I am just informing you that the harder you try to regulate guns, the more you are going to motivate conservatives to collect more guns. Do with that what you will.

Conservatives will do what they will. Those of us who advocate for meaningful gun controls will continue to do so. Personally, I have shifted pretty much all the way to the left on this topic, as a result of conversations had here and elsewhere. I think the second amendment should be repealed.

You know most gun owners never even heard of bump stocks until the Las Vegas shooter?

I have no data on this - and have not seen any. Citation?

And then they decided they are going to ban bump stocks and the sales went through the roof. People are buying them left and right. People who never even heard of them before. Even though they are supposed to get rid of them by March. They are buying them by the boatload. And probably going to hide them.

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/04/69128...-slowing-sales

Not a surprise. And if they hide them and they are banned, then our "law abiding" conservatives will e breaking the law. So much for "rule of law." If the bump stocks are banned and someone is discovered hiding them, they will be jailed or fined. That's how it works.

[Sparko]

Again...I have no problem with "gun collectors" as long as the weapons are being safely stored and protected. In fact, I have no problem with anyone owning a gun, if they can pass a background test (that needs to be periodically renewed), maintain a safe storage environment, have been formally trained and licensed to own a gun (a license that should require regular renewal), and the guns are registered in a state/national database. I also think we need due diligence laws, and I am 100% behind red flag laws.

So as long as you can ignore the 2nd amendment you are fine with gun ownership. Got it.

[Sparko]

Conservatives will do what they will. Those of us who advocate for meaningful gun controls will continue to do so. Personally, I have shifted pretty much all the way to the left on this topic, as a result of conversations had here and elsewhere. I think the second amendment should be repealed.



I have no data on this - and have not seen any. Citation?

Well I never heard of them until then and many other people here on tweb said the same thing, as well as friends on facebook. And various news reports have mentioned it.

“I don’t see a tremendous outcry from the gun-owning community over this because 99.999 percent of people don’t own a bump stock,” said CCDL President Scott Wilson. “Most have never even heard of a bump stock up until what happened in Las Vegas.”
https://wamu.org/story/18/12/14/subs...-bans-in-2018/

But I doubt there was any official poll or anything. It was a simple statement.

Not a surprise. And if they hide them and they are banned, then our "law abiding" conservatives will e breaking the law. So much for "rule of law." If the bump stocks are banned and someone is discovered hiding them, they will be jailed or fined. That's how it works.

Yes, that is how it works. When people think a law is unconstitutional they will not obey it.

Although personally I don't care about bump stocks. They are a novelty, not a real tool or weapon.