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orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    And yet informed interpretations abound. Uncertainty abounds. Mystery abounds. I say read the bible. Then read it again. Do what you will after that.
    And yet UN-informed interpretations ALSO abound and therefore, uncertainty and mystery continue to abound I don't see how you are eliminating anything by staying uninformed about the background and contexts of the culture of the original authors and/or readers. Many a cult leader has lead many astray by "just" reading and privately "interpreting" and convincing others of his deeply spiritual and "special interpretation" supposedly given him or deduced by his superior spirituality.

    IMO, there's a lot of danger in "Just Reading the Bible" with no context or background or understanding of the history or culture of Scripture. I had a lot of misconceptions from my many times reading through the Bible. Fee and Stuart's book helped me tremendously as did "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes".

    Another quote from Fee:

    “Interpretation that aims at, or thrives on, uniqueness can usually be attributed to pride (an attempt to “outclever” the rest of the world), a false understanding of spirituality (wherein the Bible is full of deeply buried truths waiting to be mined by the spiritually sensitive person with special insight), or vested interests (the need to support a theological bias, especially in dealing with texts that seem to go against that bias).”



    Last edited by Littlejoe; 12-03-2018, 10:09 AM.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      You do have to plow through them and not let your eyes glaze over.
      I was going to start reading through the new testament in high school (as a non-Christian). I stopped quickly when starting to read Matthew 1.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
        I was going to start reading through the new testament in high school (as a non-Christian). I stopped quickly when starting to read Matthew 1.
        That's the reading for the 2nd Sunday before Christmas, IIRC (so the priest gets to chant it for everyone to hear and then preach a homily on it).

        I'll admit I've struggled with daily Bible reading (aside from a Psalm during morning & evening prayers). There is a yearly cycle of daily readings which covers pretty much the whole NT sans Revelation and parts of the OT during Lent (primarily Genesis, Job, Proverbs, and Isaiah), but takes just enough effort to keep track of the epistle and Gospel reading for the day that I'm too lazy to keep at it. I just bought a copy of The Bible and Holy Fathers for Orthodox, a massive tome which has all the daily readings with patristic commentary; that's helping me quite a bit. I've gotten through the whole thing a couple times (with Psalms/Proverbs/NT rather more times). I love reading through the NT and spotting the echoes therein from the OT; NT Wright has helped some with that. The liturgy is also shot through with scripture quotes and allusions, especially from the Psalms.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I'm on my 27th read of the Bible
          I have a room full of books, some of which I read.

          Can I go to Heaven?
          If you try reading them on your smartphone while driving in heavy traffic, you might.
          When I Survey....

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            And yet UN-informed interpretations ALSO abound and therefore, uncertainty and mystery continue to abound I don't see how you are eliminating anything by staying uninformed about the background and contexts of the culture of the original authors and/or readers.
            I am not attempting to eliminate study of the background context. I stated to Rogue that the bible should be read multiple times before one embarks upon the often times hazy process of contextualization -- if they choose to, or if they believe they are led to become teachers or pastors, it could certainly help. The average believer will do well to simply read the text of the bible. It would be unwise to switch that which belongs in the foreground (the text of the bible) to the background, and putting that which belongs in the background (the hazy context) to the foreground. Unfortunately some believers are led to do so, as they remain ignorant of the actual text of the bible.

            Many a cult leader has lead many astray by "just" reading and privately "interpreting" and convincing others of his deeply spiritual and "special interpretation" supposedly given him or deduced by his superior spirituality.
            Such a person was being disobedient to the bible; as the bible states that not many of us should become teachers. If someone reads the bible over and over again, they will certainly be hesitant to rise up as an infallible teacher.

            IMO, there's a lot of danger in "Just Reading the Bible" with no context or background or understanding of the history or culture of Scripture.
            I basically disagree with your opinion here. There is no danger in reading the bible. Period. There is danger in mixing bible reading with ill motives.

            I had a lot of misconceptions from my many times reading through the Bible.
            How many times have you read the entire bible? Precisely what misconceptions did you have after reading the entire bible?

            Fee and Stuart's book helped me tremendously as did "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes".

            Another quote from Fee:

            “Interpretation that aims at, or thrives on, uniqueness can usually be attributed to pride (an attempt to “outclever” the rest of the world), a false understanding of spirituality (wherein the Bible is full of deeply buried truths waiting to be mined by the spiritually sensitive person with special insight), or vested interests (the need to support a theological bias, especially in dealing with texts that seem to go against that bias).”



            Yes and this perspective would be obvious to those who simply read the bible. There is also a danger in believing that scholars and contextualization will yield significantly more certainty when it comes to even basic doctrines because one can easily see how many bible scholars disagree with one another. Often times scholars have a vested interest in keeping believers in their pedantic world -- they need to feed their families too. Once a believer realizes that even scholars disagree on a myriad of topics, they often get theological angst and turn to (what they believe) are infallible churches or figures. Simple bible reading would often times prevent that. Yet believers often just refuse to read their bible and instead eagerly turn to non-inspired works. It's a shame.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
              And yet UN-informed interpretations ALSO abound and therefore, uncertainty and mystery continue to abound I don't see how you are eliminating anything by staying uninformed about the background and contexts of the culture of the original authors and/or readers. Many a cult leader has lead many astray by "just" reading and privately "interpreting" and convincing others of his deeply spiritual and "special interpretation" supposedly given him or deduced by his superior spirituality.

              IMO, there's a lot of danger in "Just Reading the Bible" with no context or background or understanding of the history or culture of Scripture. I had a lot of misconceptions from my many times reading through the Bible. Fee and Stuart's book helped me tremendously as did "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes".
              Double Amen. The point is to read what the Bible actually is intended to say. You can do that with out any "helps" but is harder.

              ETA: A lot harder.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                I am not attempting to eliminate study of the background context. I stated to Rogue that the bible should be read multiple times before one embarks upon the often times hazy process of contextualization -- if they choose to, or if they believe they are led to become teachers or pastors, it could certainly help. The average believer will do well to simply read the text of the bible. It would be unwise to switch that which belongs in the foreground (the text of the bible) to the background, and putting that which belongs in the background (the hazy context) to the foreground. Unfortunately some believers are led to do so, as they remain ignorant of the actual text of the bible.

                Such a person was being disobedient to the bible; as the bible states that not many of us should become teachers. If someone reads the bible over and over again, they will certainly be hesitant to rise up as an infallible teacher.

                I basically disagree with your opinion here. There is no danger in reading the bible. Period. There is danger in mixing bible reading with ill motives.

                Yes and this perspective would be obvious to those who simply read the bible. There is also a danger in believing that scholars and contextualization will yield significantly more certainty when it comes to even basic doctrines because one can easily see how many bible scholars disagree with one another. Often times scholars have a vested interest in keeping believers in their pedantic world -- they need to feed their families too. Once a believer realizes that even scholars disagree on a myriad of topics, they often get theological angst and turn to (what they believe) are infallible churches or figures. Simple bible reading would often times prevent that. Yet believers often just refuse to read their bible and instead eagerly turn to non-inspired works. It's a shame.
                For the most part, you can just read the Bible...but I submit not only are there only many things you will miss, there are many things you will misunderstand. Bible scholars disagree for the same reason believers disagree. Reading Scripture ALWAYS involves interpretation on the part of the reader. Heck, unless you are fluent in the Greek and Hebrew of the Bible everything you read is an interpretation.

                How many times have you read the entire bible? Precisely what misconceptions did you have after reading the entire bible?
                Scholars have not always driven doctrine or theology. I've read the Bible through about 12 - 13 times now...with a LOT of just reading a Book here or there for study or to teach.

                Let's start with something well known. Tell me what the meaning of Rev. 3: 15 - 16 is. (No fair looking up context or culture on it.)
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  For the most part, you can just read the Bible...but I submit not only are there only many things you will miss, there are many things you will misunderstand. Bible scholars disagree for the same reason believers disagree.
                  I basically agree, but it's important to point out that there are many things you will understand. The bible isn't exactly this borderline unintelligible book(s). Of course you won't have scholar-level knowledge of the bible just by reading it, but I never claimed you would.

                  Reading Scripture ALWAYS involves interpretation on the part of the reader. Heck, unless you are fluent in the Greek and Hebrew of the Bible everything you read is an interpretation.
                  I think this is an exaggeration. As stated, many things in the bible are quite simple to grasp if one is literate. Simple bible reading will equip one with much wisdom, along with many other benefits.

                  Scholars have not always driven doctrine or theology. I've read the Bible through about 12 - 13 times now...with a LOT of just reading a Book here or there for study or to teach.
                  That's great. The OP was directed at those who lose themselves in pedanticism without ever having read the entire bible. This sort of believer would do well to untangle themselves from the theology web of verbosity and simply read the bible a few times. Those who continue on with higher level readings would likewise do well to acknowledge theological study isn't exactly a science, and theological minutia tends to fade in terms of relevance once confronted with the big world out there.

                  Let's start with something well known.
                  No thanks.

                  Tell me what the meaning of Rev. 3: 15 - 16 is. (No fair looking up context or culture on it.)
                  Those interested would do well to read the entire book of revelation along with the rest of the bible. This would lead to a more informed and non-heretical interpretation.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    I basically agree, but it's important to point out that there are many things you will understand. The bible isn't exactly this borderline unintelligible book(s). Of course you won't have scholar-level knowledge of the bible just by reading it, but I never claimed you would.
                    and some very important things that you will not understand will be totally missed.

                    I think this is an exaggeration. As stated, many things in the bible are quite simple to grasp if one is literate. Simple bible reading will equip one with much wisdom, along with many other benefits.
                    Nope, it's not an exaggeration. Everyone brings their own experiences, understanding and culture to scripture. The fact that you're hand waving it away means you don't even know what you don't know.

                    No thanks. Those interested would do well to read the entire book of revelation along with the rest of the bible. This would lead to a more informed and non-heretical interpretation.
                    What? Afraid of being hoisted on your own petard?
                    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                      and some very important things that you will not understand will be totally missed.
                      I don't know if I deem that which is unnecessary for salvation "very important". I think one can perhaps miss some things that would otherwise enrich their faith, perhaps. It could also lead to frustration and theological angst because they are focusing on debatable contextual haziness instead of the clear declarations contained within the scriptures (this doesn't mean they will have all the answers, but they will have all the answers they need for life and faith). Remember, this is for those who have never read the entire bible. Those who want to enrich their faith certainly have freedom to do so.

                      Nope, it's not an exaggeration.
                      I think it is.

                      Everyone brings their own experiences, understanding and culture to scripture.
                      Sure but this doesn't necessarily lead to wildly different interpretations as if the bible is some cryptic, unintelligible text that the chicken little's could never understand.

                      The fact that you're hand waving it away means you don't even know what you don't know. What? Afraid of being hoisted on your own petard?
                      :)
                      Last edited by Scrawly; 12-07-2018, 07:09 PM.

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