But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangelÂ’s call and with the sound of GodÂ’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words
I bring up this topic in light of a blog post by prominent NT and Christian origins scholar Larry Hurtado. Dr. Hurtado made a passing remark that caught my eye:
"Obviously, as Fredriksen emphasizes, Paul and that “first generation” held the eschatological conviction that Jesus’ return in glory and the consummation of God’s kingdom would take place within their lifetime (as reflected in Paul’s reference to “we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,” 1 Thessalonians 4:15)."
Dr. Hurtado (certainly not the only NT scholar) believes Paul was flat out wrong here.
John Piper in an article briefly touches on the this verse and states:
"..he’s simply referring to those who are alive at the Lord’s coming and is including himself in that in hope, in possible expectation, in general, but not with an intent to teach that Jesus therefore cannot come before he dies."
Do you think Piper is obfuscating the verse(s)? Isn't Paul referring specifically to the church of the Thessalonians (1Thes. 1:1)? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that Paul is specifically referring to the Thessalonians when he states: "who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with [the dead] to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever." The next verse seems to drive home that reality when Paul tells the Thessalonians to "encourage one another with these words." Paul is telling the Thessalonians to encourage one another with the promise that "who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with [the dead] to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever".
Now we can certainly say that because the bible is inspired, that promise belongs to all Christian's throughout the centuries. Yet I don't think that resolves the contextual issue of the promise/belief being falsified -- specifically for the Thessalonians -- and therefore providing the Thessalonians with false hope. I hope to be wrong here, but how do you resolve this issue?
I bring up this topic in light of a blog post by prominent NT and Christian origins scholar Larry Hurtado. Dr. Hurtado made a passing remark that caught my eye:
"Obviously, as Fredriksen emphasizes, Paul and that “first generation” held the eschatological conviction that Jesus’ return in glory and the consummation of God’s kingdom would take place within their lifetime (as reflected in Paul’s reference to “we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,” 1 Thessalonians 4:15)."
Dr. Hurtado (certainly not the only NT scholar) believes Paul was flat out wrong here.
John Piper in an article briefly touches on the this verse and states:
"..he’s simply referring to those who are alive at the Lord’s coming and is including himself in that in hope, in possible expectation, in general, but not with an intent to teach that Jesus therefore cannot come before he dies."
Do you think Piper is obfuscating the verse(s)? Isn't Paul referring specifically to the church of the Thessalonians (1Thes. 1:1)? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that Paul is specifically referring to the Thessalonians when he states: "who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with [the dead] to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever." The next verse seems to drive home that reality when Paul tells the Thessalonians to "encourage one another with these words." Paul is telling the Thessalonians to encourage one another with the promise that "who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with [the dead] to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever".
Now we can certainly say that because the bible is inspired, that promise belongs to all Christian's throughout the centuries. Yet I don't think that resolves the contextual issue of the promise/belief being falsified -- specifically for the Thessalonians -- and therefore providing the Thessalonians with false hope. I hope to be wrong here, but how do you resolve this issue?
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