North Carolina Voting - and Consistency

[rogue06]

I don't need no photo ID to vote. I am traveling!

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[carpedm9587]

OK, you make me smile. Georgia, in my opinion, is a good example of the Photo ID policy, and they include a driver's license even if it's expired. So, the "too old" thing doesn't cut it. And I don't know of any high school students who don't get their driers license before leaving high school, let alone college students. The rest of it is amusing.... "not wealthy enough yet to own a car" --- you don't have to own a car to have a drivers license...

As you were!

Georgia -- What IDs are acceptable?

• Any valid state or federal government issued photo ID, including a free ID Card issued by your county registrar's office or the Georgia Department of Driver Services (DDS)
• A Georgia Driver's License, even if expired
• Valid employee photo ID from any branch, department, agency, or entity of the U.S. Government, Georgia, or any county, municipality, board, authority or other entity of this state
• Valid U.S. passport ID
• Valid U.S. military photo ID
• Valid tribal photo ID

My son is one...graduated high school 2 years ago and still no license. My brother-in-law is another. Lives in Boston and sees no need to have a car - so he let his license expire a decade ago. My niece is a third. In college (3rd year) and still has no drivers license.

If there are three in my family alone, how rare can it actually be?

[carpedm9587]

Yep. At this point they have simply become the party of cheating. It's disgusting and despicable.

I think this is too broad a brush. There are examples of voter fraud and election fraud from both parties. Fortunately, they are fairly rare. Most people do the right thing.

[Starlight]

I think this is too broad a brush. There are examples of voter fraud and election fraud from both parties. Fortunately, they are fairly rare. Most people do the right thing.

I was talking about general political scumbaggery to undermine the democratic process. Everything from gerrymandering, to voter purges, to voter ID, to the recent lame-duck-session coups taking place in Wisconsin and Michigan where during the transition period the existing Republican majorities are selectively stripping power away from the positions democrats are going to occupy soon. That last one probably needs its own thread, but it's true scum-of-the-earth Banana Republic type stuff, hence my nickname of "Banana Republicans" for those doing it.

The Republican party consistently and regularly acts to undermine democracy in the US, and I find it despicable, and although the Dems occasionally aren't pure on the subject either, it is by far and away not a both sides are equally bad thing.

[oxmixmudd]

I was talking about general political scumbaggery to undermine the democratic process. Everything from gerrymandering, to voter purges, to voter ID, to the recent lame-duck-session coups taking place in Wisconsin and Michigan where during the transition period the existing Republican majorities are selectively stripping power away from the positions democrats are going to occupy soon. That last one probably needs its own thread, but it's true scum-of-the-earth Banana Republic type stuff, hence my nickname of "Banana Republicans" for those doing it.

The Republican party consistently and regularly acts to undermine democracy in the US, and I find it despicable, and although the Dems occasionally aren't pure on the subject either, it is by far and away not a both sides are equally bad thing.

Any way to substantiate that? I tend to believe both sides are equally guilty. But I'm willing to listen to an argument(s) that one or the other side holds a disproportionate share of the guilt. I would ask that we don't just look at one sort of fraud or act to influence elections. There is also the issue of provable violations vs suspected violations - not sure how to balance that out.

Jim

[shunyadragon]

My son is one...graduated high school 2 years ago and still no license. My brother-in-law is another. Lives in Boston and sees no need to have a car - so he let his license expire a decade ago. My niece is a third. In college (3rd year) and still has no drivers license.

If there are three in my family alone, how rare can it actually be?

Probably very common, but many like the above, are a matter of neglect on the part of the individuals. Most if not all states issue ID's that are not driver's license. There will also be alternate ID's acceptable in most states like NC. I objected to the movement for ID requirement for voting, but I realize for many reasons this is the standard for the future. By 2020 a certified ID will be required for many things like access to airports, courthouses, and many government buildings. The state driver's licence office is issuing these new ID's that replace the old driver's license and old non-driving IDs.

There is a problem with older poor that in some cases never had ID of any kind, and in some cases no birth certificate. This can be resolved, and in NC there is a procedure to resolve this, but it depends on a legal process.

I had an odd ID crisis when returning from China in 2006 after being away for nine years. Thanks to Homeland Security rules, which have since changed. I had an original Birth Certificate, an expired North Carolina driver's license, a passport that was stamped void when I entered the USA, because it was water damaged. Because of my water damaged passport, loose picture, and expired drivers license, I was held for a while and questioned. Because I was away for about nine years there was not much in the way of any record of me in the USA. No residence, no credit cards, no employment record it took a while for them to let me enter with a passport stamped void.

Fortunately I got a job in Chicago with a restoration firm, Hadden Restorations, because of my OSHA and environmental experience, but no one would renew ID, because I did not have three forms of acceptable ID. It was required to have a current Social Security Card issued by the Federal government. I could not get a bank account. The original Birth Certificate was not acceptable, because it was now required the new state issued certified Birth Certificate. It is long story, but over the year I technically illegally acquired three forms of acceptable ID to drive, vote and get a bank account.

Until I got real official ID my transportation around Chicago was on bicycle.

[rogue06]

I was talking about general political scumbaggery to undermine the democratic process. Everything from gerrymandering, to voter purges, to voter ID, to the recent lame-duck-session coups taking place in Wisconsin and Michigan where during the transition period the existing Republican majorities are selectively stripping power away from the positions democrats are going to occupy soon. That last one probably needs its own thread, but it's true scum-of-the-earth Banana Republic type stuff, hence my nickname of "Banana Republicans" for those doing it.

The Republican party consistently and regularly acts to undermine democracy in the US, and I find it despicable, and although the Dems occasionally aren't pure on the subject either, it is by far and away not a both sides are equally bad thing.

Unlike the political scumbaggery to undermine the democratic process that includes having more votes from districts than there are eligible voters and some times with every single one voting Democrat, vetoing bills requiring an investigation where the number of ballots cast exceeded the number of voters eligible to cast them, boasting of shipping in out of state people to vote, having military ballots thrown out by the score under blatantly false pretenses, calling elections in states where there is still voting going on in order to suppress the vote, constantly and mysteriously finding boxes full of votes in someone's trunk days after an election that need to be counted, rigging primaries and debates so that the candidate that was selected by the party bosses wins while smirking as they say that every vote counts.

This sort of stuff happens every election cycle so I think it is more than reasonable to say it is consistent and regular.

[JimL]

Unlike the political scumbaggery to undermine the democratic process that includes having more votes from districts than there are eligible voters and some times with every single one voting Democrat, vetoing bills requiring an investigation where the number of ballots cast exceeded the number of voters eligible to cast them, boasting of shipping in out of state people to vote, having military ballots thrown out by the score under blatantly false pretenses, calling elections in states where there is still voting going on in order to suppress the vote, constantly and mysteriously finding boxes full of votes in someone's trunk days after an election that need to be counted, rigging primaries and debates so that the candidate that was selected by the party bosses wins while smirking as they say that every vote counts.

This sort of stuff happens every election cycle so I think it is more than reasonable to say it is consistent and regular.

Not to mention Obama is an Arab who was born in Kenya and founded Isis.

[Cow Poke]

My son is one...graduated high school 2 years ago and still no license.

And you're going to claim this is because he has neither the time nor the money to obtain one? And you're an mean old ogre and would refuse to assist him?

My brother-in-law is another. Lives in Boston and sees no need to have a car - so he let his license expire a decade ago.

According to Georgia's requirements, his expired license is a valid ID.

My niece is a third. In college (3rd year) and still has no drivers license.

You realize this is really straining credulity, yes? Again, is the reason she has no license because it's horrendously expensive or incredibly time consuming?

If there are three in my family alone, how rare can it actually be?

So, let's see - the Boston dude qualifies with an expired license.
The college student no doubt has a college ID - and had to experience all kinds of expensive and time consuming activities to enter and maintain his/her college education.
Your son has you to assist him (you've told me you do this kind of thing) in getting some kind of photo ID, so we'll disqualify him as being barred because it's "way too expensive and way too time consuming".

Next?

[Cow Poke]

I was talking about general political scumbaggery to undermine the democratic process. Everything from gerrymandering, to voter purges, to voter ID, to the recent lame-duck-session coups taking place in Wisconsin and Michigan where during the transition period the existing Republican majorities are selectively stripping power away from the positions democrats are going to occupy soon. That last one probably needs its own thread, but it's true scum-of-the-earth Banana Republic type stuff, hence my nickname of "Banana Republicans" for those doing it.

The Republican party consistently and regularly acts to undermine democracy in the US, and I find it despicable, and although the Dems occasionally aren't pure on the subject either, it is by far and away not a both sides are equally bad thing.

Thank you for so very much for this incredibly fair and balanced and reasonable and incredibly well documented assessment from across the pond. I don't think the other posters here recognize the tremendous value you bring to Tweb.

[One Bad Pig]

Not to mention Obama is an Arab who was born in Kenya and founded Isis.

Awesome non sequitur, Jim.

[rogue06]

Not to mention Obama is an Arab who was born in Kenya and founded Isis.

Aside from your mistaken belief that Kenyans are Arabs please keep in mind how much the Hillary campaign was responsible for disseminating the birther story. And I never heard anyone ever say that Obama founded ISIS but rather that he ignored them and let them expand (dismissing them as merely the "junior varsity" and nothing to be much concerned about).

[Sparko]

My son is one...graduated high school 2 years ago and still no license. My brother-in-law is another. Lives in Boston and sees no need to have a car - so he let his license expire a decade ago. My niece is a third. In college (3rd year) and still has no drivers license.

If there are three in my family alone, how rare can it actually be?

Do they have photo IDs?

[Starlight]

Any way to substantiate that? I tend to believe both sides are equally guilty. But I'm willing to listen to an argument(s) that one or the other side holds a disproportionate share of the guilt.

A couple of points of empirical data I've seen instantly come to mind...

Of the 10 most gerrymandered states according to a mathematical measure of gerrymandering, 9 were done by Republicans to favor them, and only 1 was done by Dems to favor them.

At the voter level, voters that lean democratic are far and away more supportive of everyone voting who has a right to than republican voters are:

Pew democracy.jpg

As far as the recent attempts of Republicans in Wisconsin and Michigan to strip power from incoming elected democrats in the lame-duck session I can't say I've ever seen anything like it before. It's off the scale in anti-democratic insanity.

As far as voter roll purging goes, I'm not sure how you'd empirically quantify that. Though I definitely see stories of Republicans doing it an order of magnitude more often.

We also had a Republican essentially running his own election in Georgia in the mid-terms because he was Secretary of State and then ran for Governor in the midterms. And he refused to recuse himself from the oversight of his own election. That was pretty bad, and appears to have affected the outcome.

The Voting Rights Act, passed in the 60s to ensure African Americans weren't prevented from voting, did part of its job by requiring that the states who had historically been worst at suppressing the Black vote had to now get a stamp of approval by the DoJ with regard to any proposed changes to their election laws as the DoJ checked for racial bias. This prevented a lot of southern states (that lean Republican in the modern period) from passing unfair election laws for a long time, but the Republican-dominated Supreme Court tossed out this section of the law in 2013, which allowed those states to go nuts in suppressing the Black vote, and even if courts subsequently throw out those laws often the court process is too slow and the laws have had their desired anti-democratic impact.

At a political-science level, part of what the left-wing vs right-wing divide typically means, in general, amounts to the fact that the left wing is more supportive of democracy / a more fair and complete distribution of power among the people, while the right-wing is less supportive of democracy and prefers to consolidate power in the hands of a few / the powerful / the wealthy. In France where the terms were first used, the left side of the House was for the representatives of the populace while the right side of the House was for the representatives of the aristocracy. And there are various reasons why the things the left-wing stand for in countries round the world today make them more supportive of democracy in general than the things the right-wing stand for make them.

[JimL]

Thank you for so very much for this incredibly fair and balanced and reasonable and incredibly well documented assessment from across the pond. I don't think the other posters here recognize the tremendous value you bring to Tweb.

Just can't face the truth can you CP. Why don't you just leave the dark side, quit the team, then you won't be left in the embarrassing position of trying to defend the indefensible all the time. On the other hand, if you prefer a dictatorship over democracy, then by all means continue your support for the current dictatorial republican party led by Trump.