North Carolina Voting - and Consistency

[Starlight]

OK, let's start with this one. I'm "struggling" to find in your study where it says 26 million people don't have qualifying IDs. Please help me out with that.

Haha, sorry, copy and pasted wrong link. Fixed now. Surveys find around 11% of adults lack the IDs, which given the US adult population works out at 26 million nationwide.

[Cow Poke]

If every get out the vote campaign has to put extra time in their ads to explain voter ID, that costs money because ad time isn't free. If every phone call they make takes extra time because they have to explain voter ID that isn't free because the caller's and callee's time are both valuable.

Star, honestly, I think you offered a really weak point, and are "struggling" to defend it. How much more "extra time" would it take to say, "oh, by the way, you need a photo ID, do you have one?" And, as precious as most of us think the right to vote is, isn't it worth the little bit of extra effort?

And it's occurred to me I omitted to consider the extra time taken on election day for people who have to perform the additional check of the voter ID. Again, people's time is money and inefficiency and over-bureaucratizing things costs money/time. (I wonder if it doesn't come across often enough on these forums just what a zealous crusader I am for efficiency and lack of bureaucracy, since I think many Americans bizarrely associate that idea with their right-wing rather than with their left-wing)

And, remember, all of this is in aid of stopping 1 illegal vote per state per election. And, as has been pointed out, if a person really wants to cast that illegal vote, they can probably get a fake ID anyway and still cast that illegal vote.

You're really straining to support this claim, Star. Maybe you don't know how "public service" works in American TV --- there are CONSTANT "public service announcements" prior to each election that local TV stations include in their nightly news.... they even remind us to wrap our pipes, bring in our pets, and cover our plants before a freeze.

You're making it sound like a gargantuan task, and it really isn't. If you opposed photo ID, just say so --- but you really can't hide behind this "oh gosh, it's SO expensive and time consuming!"

[Cow Poke]

About 26 million according to surveys. The most common ID is a driver's license and the most common reasons for not owning that are being too old to drive, a college student who isn't yet learning to drive / not wealthy enough yet to own a car, being too poor to own a car, being too sick / having too-poor eyesight to drive, or living in the inner cities and not needing/having a car.....

OK, you make me smile. Georgia, in my opinion, is a good example of the Photo ID policy, and they include a driver's license even if it's expired. So, the "too old" thing doesn't cut it. And I don't know of any high school students who don't get their driers license before leaving high school, let alone college students. The rest of it is amusing.... "not wealthy enough yet to own a car" --- you don't have to own a car to have a drivers license...

As you were!

Georgia -- What IDs are acceptable?

• Any valid state or federal government issued photo ID, including a free ID Card issued by your county registrar's office or the Georgia Department of Driver Services (DDS)
• A Georgia Driver's License, even if expired
• Valid employee photo ID from any branch, department, agency, or entity of the U.S. Government, Georgia, or any county, municipality, board, authority or other entity of this state
• Valid U.S. passport ID
• Valid U.S. military photo ID
• Valid tribal photo ID

[Starlight]

Star, honestly, I think you offered a really weak point, and are "struggling" to defend it.

And I honestly think I stated a self-evident truism, and find your demanding evidence for it as bizarre as if you had found my statement that 1+1=2 somehow needed explaining. Your questioning of it comes across to me as bizarre weaseling and bluster and makes me wonder what's going on with you.

How much more "extra time" would it take to say, "oh, by the way, you need a photo ID, do you have one?"

It takes extra time to discuss what is and isn't a valid ID with them. It takes extra time to obtain the ID, it takes extra effort to carry the ID around with them. Some people will get to the polls and realize they haven't brought their ID with them and have to go back for it, or just leave and not bother to return to vote - this has been happening to me recently with supermarket shopping now that we have to bring our own bags due to the removal of plastic bags.

And, as precious as most of us think the right to vote is, isn't it worth the little bit of extra effort?

Given how important I think the right to vote is, I find suppressing the vote via voter ID to be a serious moral evil, and so I find your statement here offensive and disgusting. You would suppress people's voting rights and justify that with "isn't it worth extra effort?" That statement belongs in the poll taxes era.

there are CONSTANT "public service announcements" prior to each election that local TV stations include in their nightly news.... they even remind us to wrap our pipes, bring in our pets, and cover our plants before a freeze.

And do you think those are "free" in terms of time and money spent on them in terms of cost of air-time, cost of viewer time, etc? By the time you add up all the costs it's not free.

If you opposed photo ID, just say so

Haven't you been reading my posts? It's a stupidly moronic idea because it tries to "solve" a "problem" that doesn't exist by causing 1000x more damage to the democratic process in terms of number of votes actually cast by valid vote-castors than the "problem" it "solves" does; it is easily circumventable by those who want to do so (via fake ID); and it costs everyone time and money. In terms of pros and cons it literally has to be one of the worst policies ever. There is literally nothing good about it. It adds red tape and costs time and money to achieve a significant net negative effect on democratic outcomes, and since democracy is sacred IMO that makes the policy evil. Clear?

[Cow Poke]

And I honestly think I stated a self-evident truism, and find your demanding evidence for it as bizarre....

I demanded nothing, Star. I asked, in a friendly conversation, if you had proof of your claim. You seem to get on this "really bizarre" kick when you are unable to defend your statements. There is absolutely nothing "bizarre" about asking "where'd you get that information"?

[Starlight]

OK, you make me smile. Georgia, in my opinion, is a good example of the Photo ID policy, and they include a driver's license even if it's expired. So, the "too old" thing doesn't cut it. And I don't know of any high school students who don't get their driers license before leaving high school, let alone college students. The rest of it is amusing.... "not wealthy enough yet to own a car" --- you don't have to own a car to have a drivers license...

As you were!

Georgia -- What IDs are acceptable?

• Any valid state or federal government issued photo ID, including a free ID Card issued by your county registrar's office or the Georgia Department of Driver Services (DDS)
• A Georgia Driver's License, even if expired
• Valid employee photo ID from any branch, department, agency, or entity of the U.S. Government, Georgia, or any county, municipality, board, authority or other entity of this state
• Valid U.S. passport ID
• Valid U.S. military photo ID
• Valid tribal photo ID

And yet, regardless, the studies find that about 11% / 26 million people in your country don't own qualifying IDs. That's a significant number. Especially in the context of proposing this as a policy to try and stop 60 illegal votes nationally per election. I don't get why you think your blustering that you totally think that probably people own IDs already is relevant.

We don't have voter ID here, and I would tend to assume that a similar proportion of the population here doesn't happen to own photo ID. I don't recall any person here ever suggesting that it was a problem. The only stories I ever heard of are a few old ladies voting twice because they forgot they'd already voted, and the system catches that as a matter of course because their names get crossed off the roll at the polling station they vote at.

[Cow Poke]

Haven't you been reading my posts? It's a stupidly moronic idea because it tries to "solve" a "problem"...

Then just say that! You don't have to invent excuses to argue against it.... and this whole nonsense about how "expensive" it is --- that's just baloney.

Clear?

It's clear you're on a mission from all the way across the pond!

[Cow Poke]

And yet, regardless, the studies find that about 11% / 26 million people in your country don't own qualifying IDs. That's a significant number.

"Ready access" isn't necessarily the same as "don't own", Star. I actually read the survey questions.

Especially in the context of proposing this as a policy to try and stop 60 illegal votes nationally per election. I don't get why you think your blustering that you totally think that probably people IDs already is relevant.

Blustering? I'm simply asking questions, Star. And your "I don't get why you think your blustering that you totally think that probably people IDs already is relevant" is.... well, rather bizarre - and makes no sense at all. Wanna try that sentence again?

[Starlight]

Then just say that! You don't have to invent excuses to argue against it

?!? I'm against it for reasons. Am I just supposed to say "I'm against it, just because!" and not supply the rational reasons I'm against it?

and this whole nonsense about how "expensive" it is --- that's just baloney.

Of course it's expensive. We're talking about millions of people getting ID, and then hundreds of millions of people using that ID, and people being encouraged and reminded to get the right ID, lawsuits over whether or not they have the right ID. God only knows how much that all amounts to in terms of total time and money across millions and hundreds of millions of people. Your claims that it's baloney are clearly self-evidently false so aren't very interesting, except insofar as it makes me wonder what on earth is motivating you to make such stupid claims.

[Cow Poke]

?!? I'm against it for reasons. Am I just supposed to say "I'm against it, just because!" and not supply the rational reasons I'm against it?

I just think the "photo IDs are prohibitively expensive" reason is silly, because I think you're grossly exaggerating the expense. I didn't even dispute your other points.

Of course it's expensive. We're talking about millions of people getting ID, and then hundreds of millions of people using that ID, and people being encouraged and reminded to get the right ID, lawsuits over whether or not they have the right ID. God only knows how much that all amounts to in terms of total time and money across millions and hundreds of millions of people. Your claims that it's baloney are clearly self-evidently false so aren't very interesting, except insofar as it makes me wonder what on earth is motivating you to make such stupid claims.

If you can't discuss this without constantly resorting to insults, Star, we're done. Generally, that just means you have really weak points, and can't admit it. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I don't have to put up with your rancor.

I'll let you have the last word on this.

[JimL]

?!? I'm against it for reasons. Am I just supposed to say "I'm against it, just because!" and not supply the rational reasons I'm against it?

Of course it's expensive. We're talking about millions of people getting ID, and then hundreds of millions of people using that ID, and people being encouraged and reminded to get the right ID, lawsuits over whether or not they have the right ID. God only knows how much that all amounts to in terms of total time and money across millions and hundreds of millions of people. Your claims that it's baloney are clearly self-evidently false so aren't very interesting, except insofar as it makes me wonder what on earth is motivating you to make such stupid claims.

It's simply an excuse , another of the many unethical tactics in the republican playbook used to suppress the opposing vote. The leadership in the party knows there is no in person voter fraud to speak of, as if anyone is going to illegally vote and risk going to prison. It's ludicrous. Problem is, they know very well that without their cheating tactics they would hold very little political power in this country. So, they understand that, therefore they cheat, in many different ways they cheat, and N.Carolina is just one example. That's another tactic of the republicans, they always accuse the opposition of doing what they themselves are guilty of. It works too, because they only have to convince their own constituency, and convincing their own constituency of anything is easy as pie.

[Starlight]

Problem is, they know very well that without their cheating tactics they would hold very little political power in this country. So, they understand that, therefore they cheat, in many different ways they cheat, and N.Carolina is just one example. That's another tactic of the republicans, they always accuse the opposition of doing what they themselves are guilty of. It works too, because they only have to convince their own constituency, and convincing their own constituency of anything is easy as pie.

Yep. At this point they have simply become the party of cheating. It's disgusting and despicable.

[rogue06]

OK, you make me smile. Georgia, in my opinion, is a good example of the Photo ID policy, and they include a driver's license even if it's expired. So, the "too old" thing doesn't cut it. And I don't know of any high school students who don't get their driers license before leaving high school, let alone college students. The rest of it is amusing.... "not wealthy enough yet to own a car" --- you don't have to own a car to have a drivers license...

As you were!

Georgia -- What IDs are acceptable?

• Any valid state or federal government issued photo ID, including a free ID Card issued by your county registrar's office or the Georgia Department of Driver Services (DDS)
• A Georgia Driver's License, even if expired
• Valid employee photo ID from any branch, department, agency, or entity of the U.S. Government, Georgia, or any county, municipality, board, authority or other entity of this state
• Valid U.S. passport ID
• Valid U.S. military photo ID
• Valid tribal photo ID

Again, I'll note that if say that you cannot afford it they will issue it for free. If you say that it is too inconvenient to go get one (and there are typically a dozen places in each county in a state with 159 counties^[1]) they will come to your residence and issue you one. Further if you forget your I.D. you can still vote using a provisional ballot.

No excuses.






1. The reason for the abnormally large number is that back when they were established it was the law that the county seat couldn't be more than a day's walk away.

[JimL]

Again, I'll note that if say that you cannot afford it they will issue it for free. If you say that it is too inconvenient to go get one (and there are typically a dozen places in each county in a state with 159 counties^[1]) they will come to your residence and issue you one. Further if you forget your I.D. you can still vote using a provisional ballot.

No excuses.






1. The reason for the abnormally large number is that back when they were established it was the law that the county seat couldn't be more than a day's walk away.

There is no in person voter fraud, it's been investigated to death and it doesn't exist. There is only one reason for these voter ID laws and it is the same reason for all of the other election shananigans pulled by republicans, and that is to suppress the opposition, i.e. the democrat vote. Republican leadership has known since the 1970's that the more people that vote the less chance they have to win, so all of these undemocratic tactics were adopted by them and they come up with new ways of undermining the system every cycle. The only real election fraud is republican election fraud.

[rogue06]

There is no in person voter fraud, it's been investigated to death and it doesn't exist.

Meanwhile in the real world the MSM simply proclaims it does not exist and it is the studies that have shown otherwise.

For example, a study conducted in 2014 by a team of researchers from Old Dominion University and George Mason University estimated that roughly 6.4% of non-citizens voted during the 2008 presidential election with an estimated 80% of them voting in favor of the Democrats (See Do non-citizens vote in U.S. elections?). These numbers have been verified by others such as veteran pollster John McLaughlin who did a survey in 2013 which asked 800 Hispanic voters whether or not they were American citizens. A full 13% admitted they were not. You have to wonder how many were non-citizens but didn't admit it.

And a relatively recent examination found over a thousand non citizens registered to vote in just a few counties in Virginia (which did not include the larger population centers where they tend to gravitate toward). Further, that just covered self-reported aliens -- those who were accidentally caught only because when they renewed their driver’s license, they told the truth that they were a non-citizen.

There have been numerous state and local studies which uncovered numerous examples of voter fraud over the past few years such as the one in North Carolina where the state board of elections found 35,750 cases of double voting in 2012 -- people registered to vote there and in another state and who cast votes in both states ^[1]. And that is just in the 28 states which participated in the 2014 Interstate Crosscheck meaning the number is probably much higher^[2].

Ken Block of Simpatico Software Systems did a much more limited but similar examination of 21 states for the 2016 election and uncovered, for example, 2200 cases of double voting in Florida -- which is four times George W. Bush’s margin of victory in 2000. He estimates that if he had access to the records from all 50 states "there would be 40,000 duplicate votes if data from every state were available."

One example of someone registered to vote in different states in the faux working stiff self-described "everyman" but actually a one percenter^[3], mockumentary filmmaker Michael Moore who is registered in both Michigan and New York (but at least doesn't seem to have broken the law).

The Heritage Foundation keeps a non-comprehensive election fraud database which has something like 1100 examples of proven incidents of fraud resulting in 938 criminal convictions and 43 civil penalties^[4]. And Recently Investor’s Business Daily reported that according to a study of U. S. census data, the U.S. has more registered voters than actual active live voters.

Finally, there is this.

And let's not forget how the DNC and Hillary campaign were caught red-handed funding professional rioters to go to Trump campaign rallies to cause disturbances so that their sycophants in the press could declare that it was Trump's fault for being polarizing or attracting violent elements.

Robert Creamer, a convicted felon^[1] who is the husband of Rep. Jan Schakowsk (D-Ill.) a member of House Democratic leadership being the Chief Deputy Whip, and runs a political consulting firm that worked closely with the DNC and the Hillary campaign, was recorded boasting of orchestrating political violence designed to disrupt Trump rallies. Or as CNN put it, the video showed "Creamer and other operatives purportedly discussing methods for inciting violence at rallies for the Republican nominee."

According to the Chicago Sun Times, "White House visitor logs show Creamer has made 340 visits since Obama took office in January 2009" and it appears that at least 45 of those meetings were with Obama

The same goes for Scott Foval, the National Field Director for Americans United for Change, who as NPR (hardly a right wing source) said, "detailed how he and other operatives recruit and train people to protest Trump events and to try to draw Trump supporters into physical confrontations. “There's a script,” he says. “Sometimes the 'crazies' bite ... sometimes they don't bite.”"

Further he boasted that his rent-a-mobs were responsible for forcing Trump to cancel a campaign rally in Chicago last March although Aaron Black, an associate with Democracy Partners (Creamer's firm) who bragged that he was the "deputy rapid response director for the DNC for all things Trump on the ground," also took credit for it saying, "So the Chicago protest, when they shut all that, that was us. It was more [Creamer] than me."

...


As an aside, it should be noted that Creamer and Foval also discuss methods of committing voter fraud. Foval described how operatives could commit voter fraud by shipping in out of state people to vote saying that "You can prove conspiracy if there's a bus. If there are cars, it's much harder to prove." According to the Washington Times he openly admits that Democrats have been doing this for decades:

"It’s a pretty easy thing for Republicans to say, ‘Well, they’re busing people in,’" Mr. Foval said. "Well, you know what? We’ve been busing people in to deal with you [multiple expletives] for 50 years, and we’re not going to stop now. We’re just going to find a different way to do it."

In the case of Creamer he discusses plans to register Hispanic voters illegally by setting up a shell corporation and claiming that they work for them as contractors and use their fake pay checks to register to vote after which he admits that "there are a couple of organizations that that’s their big trick" and that "turnout is huge, huge, huge."



1. who served only 5 months in federal prison after pleading guilty to tax fraud and operating a check kiting scheme responsible for $2.3 million in bank fraud. Must be nice having a wife with major political connections.

Please pay attention to the bolded part. Note how they admit to orchestrating massive voter fraud and how easy it is to do.












1. To put this in perspective the election of the state's Lt. Governor was decided by only 7000 votes.

Shortly after this story broke Kim Strach, the executive director of the North Carolina State Board of Elections, referred 31 cases of alleged voter fraud to county prosecutors with 19 of them involved allegations of people voting in North Carolina and in another state. Two other cases involved someone impersonating another voter and casting a ballot.

Moreover, a separate investigation of death records from the Department of Health and Human Services, the Board revealed 81 deceased voters were still voting.

2. Some of the most heavily populated states like California, Florida, New York, and Texas (those 4 alone represent a third of the U.S. population) do not participate.

3. The link to Smoking Gun exposes him for the liar that he is, and here you can see about his getting caught pretending that he isn't in the 1% and here you can see what a sleazy hypocrite he is as he pretends to be a friend of the common worker

4. And keep in mind deliberate voting fraud is not an easy thing to prove. In many cases you pretty much need a confession or boasting about it on Social Media, otherwise you can simply claim it was a mistake and get off with a warning. What this means is the 938 criminal convictions is just the barest tip of the iceberg.