Are we in the Time of Sorrows?

[seanD]

As John points out, there are both "antichrist" and the "Antichrist." See 2 John 1:7 for an example. I think its perfectly legitimate to refer to someone as an "antichrist" without meaning he or she is the Antichrist.

True, but the criterion of antichrist John used is one that doesn't believe Christ came in the flesh. This is a hard thing to prove in a person, especially a person you don't know in private. And the expression of Christian faith in a political leader is somewhat automatic in America even if it's just mere lip service.

[JohnnyP]

True, but the criterion of antichrist John used is one that doesn't believe Christ came in the flesh. This is a hard thing to prove in a person, especially a person you don't know in private. And the expression of Christian faith in a political leader is somewhat automatic in America even if it's just mere lip service.

Following the theme I laid out earlier, I think if a world leader doesn't clearly express on some level that Jesus is Messiah/Christ and the King of Israel, and that everyone including Jews and Israelis should acknowledge him as such, that type of silence equates to denial, outer if not inner, which is discussed in 1 John 2:22.

[Thoughtful Monk]

True, but the criterion of antichrist John used is one that doesn't believe Christ came in the flesh. This is a hard thing to prove in a person, especially a person you don't know in private. And the expression of Christian faith in a political leader is somewhat automatic in America even if it's just mere lip service.

I see your point about 2 John.

I disagree about expression of Christian faith. As I think about the elections that were held here, I don't recall any of the candidates making an expression of Christian faith. May have missed it though.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Maybe I'm just having a bad period (I admit I gets the blues from roughly Thanksgiving to the end of January every year). Is the world just getting worse and worse everyday? Its not big leaps but the incremental drips and inches into the sewer. I can't think of anything that's gotten better.

[seanD]

I still go with the recent change in technology as being more of a determining factor. The ability to broadcast conditions all around the world instantly (real-time in some cases) to almost everyone is pretty recent technology. Whether earthquakes are increasing, whether wars are increasing, whether civil strife is increasing can be datable, but it definitely seems like it's getting worse because of our communication technology, and that's what I believe makes it the distinctive factor to that particular generation.

[Thoughtful Monk]

I still go with the recent change in technology as being more of a determining factor. The ability to broadcast conditions all around the world instantly (real-time in some cases) to almost everyone is pretty recent technology. Whether earthquakes are increasing, whether wars are increasing, whether civil strife is increasing can be datable, but it definitely seems like it's getting worse because of our communication technology, and that's what I believe makes it the distinctive factor to that particular generation.

As I have thought about it, I think there is a correlation between the change in technology and decrease in empathy. We get bombarded with so much that to handle it, we have to shut down our emotional reaction. If we didn't, we'd be emotional wrecks caring for all that we see and are unable to do anything about.

[seanD]

As I have thought about it, I think there is a correlation between the change in technology and decrease in empathy. We get bombarded with so much that to handle it, we have to shut down our emotional reaction. If we didn't, we'd be emotional wrecks caring for all that we see and are unable to do anything about.

Without a doubt technology is creating a cold society by isolating us into a virtual reality away from actual human interaction (I see it everyday in LA like a plague -- people buried in their smart phones, oblivious to their surroundings like virtual zombies). I don't think anyone would debate this fact except those with extreme views in favor of technology (like transhumanists for example). But your point is definitely another good way to look at it.

[AlphaBravo]

As bad as the world may be, I'm not sure I believe that it is getting worse or that it is in the dark and rather terminal state described in Mt 24/Lk 21. I know that numbers and the bare name of Christian don't mean everything but today Christians are certainly not fewer in number or proportion. On the contrary, the message of Christ continues to be very successful across the world and I believe in the power of that message to change the hearts of men. I also believe in the power of a very few righteous to salt the earth and make it palatable for God to endure.

Thinking along these lines reminds me of something in The Lord of the Rings where Gandalf says that Denethor despaired because he looked too long into the seeing stone which only showed the enemies exaggerated and seemingly hopeless version of reality.

Peace.

[seanD]

As bad as the world may be, I'm not sure I believe that it is getting worse or that it is in the dark and rather terminal state described in Mt 24/Lk 21. I know that numbers and the bare name of Christian don't mean everything but today Christians are certainly not fewer in number or proportion. On the contrary, the message of Christ continues to be very successful across the world and I believe in the power of that message to change the hearts of men. I also believe in the power of a very few righteous to salt the earth and make it palatable for God to endure.

Thinking along these lines reminds me of something in The Lord of the Rings where Gandalf says that Denethor despaired because he looked too long into the seeing stone which only showed the enemies exaggerated and seemingly hopeless version of reality.

Peace.

I agree that the message of Christ is power to change the hearts of men, but it's a proven fact that people are falling away from the faith in droves, and this is a recent trend maybe in the last two or three decades? (not saying you're a preterist or anything because I don't know, but I never understood how preterists explain this).

[AlphaBravo]

I agree that the message of Christ is power to change the hearts of men, but it's a proven fact that people are falling away from the faith in droves, and this is a recent trend maybe in the last two or three decades? (not saying you're a preterist or anything because I don't know, but I never understood how preterists explain this).

I don't own preterism/postmillenialism entirely but I think it is partly just the numbers of Christians as I said. The most generous numbers put them as high as two or three billion. Yes, the numbers of practicing Christians in some western (Euro/GB) and westernized (Japan) nations is low or flagging but in third world and more traditional cultures (Africa/Asia/South America) Christianity is exploding, to say nothing of the US and Canada.

I think the more difficult problem is for the premillenialist to explain how the world is spiraling down to the conditions described in the time of sorrow which is compared in some ways to a time like the time of Noah. Even of Sodom and Gomorrah it is said that God would have spared them for only 10 righteous souls. This perspective leads to an exaggerated pessimism and an anticipation of tragedy that I hope is not self fulfilling. jmho.

[seanD]

I don't own preterism/postmillenialism entirely but I think it is partly just the numbers of Christians as I said. The most generous numbers put them as high as two or three billion. Yes, the numbers of practicing Christians in some western (Euro/GB) and westernized (Japan) nations is low or flagging but in third world and more traditional cultures (Africa/Asia/South America) Christianity is exploding, to say nothing of the US and Canada.

I think the more difficult problem is for the premillenialist to explain how the world is spiraling down to the conditions described in the time of sorrow which is compared in some ways to a time like the time of Noah. Even of Sodom and Gomorrah it is said that God would have spared them for only 10 righteous souls. This perspective leads to an exaggerated pessimism and an anticipation of tragedy that I hope is not self fulfilling. jmho.

I believe the emphasis should be put on our unique technology. My explanation is that this generation is able to perceive and (in some ways) even experience the sorrow in the world in a cumulative way that no other prior generation could, via our communication technology. Whether bad things have actually increased is a matter of debate and will probably always be up for debate. Even if things actually did get worse, there would be no way to determine this for sure from previous generations we could never experience.

[AlphaBravo]

I believe the emphasis should be put on our unique technology. My explanation is that this generation is able to perceive and (in some ways) even experience the sorrow in the world in a cumulative way that no other prior generation could, via our communication technology. Whether bad things have actually increased is a matter of debate and will probably always be up for debate. Even if things actually did get worse, there would be no way to determine this for sure from previous generations we could never experience.

Yeah that was kinda my point of the LOTR reference. The stones of orthanc were sort of like a closed circuit televisions that showed what the most powerful party wanted it to show. And as it turns out in the case of Denethor it only showed him an exaggerated view of the enemies power which led him to pessimism and despair.

[seanD]

Yeah that was kinda my point of the LOTR reference. The stones of orthanc were sort of like a closed circuit televisions that showed what the most powerful party wanted it to show. And as it turns out in the case of Denethor it only showed him an exaggerated view of the enemies power which led him to pessimism and despair.

Hence the moniker "Time of Sorrows."

[Thoughtful Monk]

(I see it everyday in LA like a plague -- people buried in their smart phones, oblivious to their surroundings like virtual zombies).

Having just watched an extended member of my family do something like this, your point has more validity than I originally credit it with.

[Thoughtful Monk]

I don't own preterism/postmillenialism entirely but I think it is partly just the numbers of Christians as I said. The most generous numbers put them as high as two or three billion. Yes, the numbers of practicing Christians in some western (Euro/GB) and westernized (Japan) nations is low or flagging but in third world and more traditional cultures (Africa/Asia/South America) Christianity is exploding, to say nothing of the US and Canada.

Let's say nothing about the US and Canada except they are heading down the road already taken by Europe/GB. And since the US government uses its finances to export our values onto Africa/Asia/S. America there spiritual doom is sure.

I think the more difficult problem is for the premillenialist to explain how the world is spiraling down to the conditions described in the time of sorrow which is compared in some ways to a time like the time of Noah. Even of Sodom and Gomorrah it is said that God would have spared them for only 10 righteous souls. This perspective leads to an exaggerated pessimism and an anticipation of tragedy that I hope is not self fulfilling. jmho.

Because man can not save himself spiritual nor it appears even physically. Any viewpoint that teaches that man can save himself is ultimately doomed to disappoint one who follows that view.

Or put another way...


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