Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 34

Thread: Could Ezekiel's prophecy about Magog's invasion of Israel be ready to take place?

  1. #1
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Greater Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    36
    Amen (Given)
    25
    Amen (Received)
    5

    Lightbulb Could Ezekiel's prophecy about Magog's invasion of Israel be ready to take place?

    Ezekiel 36 to 39 describe a series of events to take place in "the Last Days," beginning with the restoration of Israel as a nation (which took place in 1948) after a worldwide dispersion. Israel has since flourished economically and in the last 10 years has developed oil and gas reserves worth $100 billion (providing the spoil given as the motivation for Gog's attack). Currently, Russia, Turkey and Iran (the key allies mentioned in the text) have aligned themselves politically and amassed their combined military forces in Syria just north of Israel (the northern direction from which the prophesied invasion of Israel is to take place). There has been recent earthquake activity in the Golan Heights (one of the interventions God will use to destroy the invaders - along with friendly fire, hail, fire and brimstone). We know this attack has not yet taken place, because Israel has never buried the bodies of any invaders in a valley named, Hamon-Gog near a city called Hamonah. They do not yet exist.

    From the Futurist perspective, this invasion could not take place within the 7 year Tribulation Period (the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, Dan. 9:24-27) because Israel is to use the enemy's weapons as fuel for 7 years - something they will not likely be doing while running for their lives from the antichrist after he turns on them after defiling the rebuild temple in the middle of the Tribulation. This would suggest the invasion of Gog must take place at least 3 1/2 years prior to the beginning of the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. Btw, Israel has already created all the furniture and implements required to reinstate Mosaic sacrifice (including the Menora, the Altar, the Breastplate and Crown of the High Priest, etc. They have the blueprints and financing ready for the temple, have chosen a High Priest, have reconvened the Sanhedrin, found the ancient anointing oil, procured a pure red heifer, and have said they know where the Ark of the Covenant currently resides).

    With all this in mind, what do you think is the likelihood that the invasion of Israel as foretold by the prophet Ezekiel may be "right around the corner"?

    Or is all this to be written off as a long, long, long series of mere coincidences?
    Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-22-2019 at 02:29 PM.

  2. #2
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    21,358
    Amen (Given)
    6337
    Amen (Received)
    12114
    IMO, the secular nation-state of Israel has nothing whatever to do with the Israel of prophecy. There was also no such thing as Russia back then (it being well beyond the bounds of civilization), and Turkey is a modern construct.

    There may be a Sanhedrin, but I'm confident that only a fringe group considers it to be authoritative. There's also the slight problem of the Dome of the Rock currently occupying the Temple mount.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  3. Amen Chaotic Void, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  4. #3
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    57,264
    Amen (Given)
    12433
    Amen (Received)
    26610
    I, too, have a problem with equating modern day Israel to the Israel of the Bible.
    DuckDuckGo - Privacy Simplified

  5. Amen Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
  6. #4
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Greater Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    36
    Amen (Given)
    25
    Amen (Received)
    5
    Hi One Bad Pig,

    Been a long time. Glad to see you're still here.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    IMO, the secular nation-state of Israel has nothing whatever to do with the Israel of prophecy.
    Nothing whatever? Then how do you explain Zechariah 12:2, 3, 8-10, "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves... 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."? This speaks of Israel's repentance IN JERUSALEM at Christ's return. How can this be other than the Israel that exists today since 1948 - the same Jerusalem which virtually "all the nations of the earth" are aligned against today, just as described in this passage?

    And Zech. 14:2-4, "2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."? This speaks of Christ's return to the mount of Olives IN JERUSALEM, ISRAEL - where He ascended and to which the angel told the disciples He would return (Acts 1:7-12). How can this not be referring to the Israel of today (and therefore the Israel of prophecy)?

    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    There was also no such thing as Russia back then (it being well beyond the bounds of civilization), and Turkey is a modern construct.
    Of course, Ezekiel would have described people groups from his day, but they can be translated to modern nations by tracking the people from those areas and the historical use of ancient names. For instance, there is no doubt that ancient Persian is currently the people of Iran. Rosh is Russia, etc. So while Ezekiel wouldn't use today's national names (the people of his day wouldn't know who he was talking about), we can be relatively certain which nations are involved. "From the Uttermost North" is a great clue for Russia, since Moscow itself lies directly north of Jerusalem.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    There may be a Sanhedrin, but I'm confident that only a fringe group considers it to be authoritative. There's also the slight problem of the Dome of the Rock currently occupying the Temple mount.
    There are a few of ways the Dome of the Rock problem could be resolved. One is that the original site of Solomon's temple was in the City of David, to the west of the Temple Mount (where a church currently sits). If this site is verified, problem solved. Another is that the Dome is not actually where the original temple stood either, and that the new temple could be build around it, leaving the Dome in the Court of the Gentiles. In addition, there are rumors that the Dome itself is currently falling apart (the Muslims are blaming the Jews for deliberately undermining the foundations), so if an earthquake perhaps brought the building down, it may be resolved that way. Time will tell. What we do know is that Daniel (Dan. 9:27), Jesus (Matt. 24:15, 21, 27, 30) Paul (2 Thess. 2:1-4) and John (Rev. 11:1, 2) all spoke of a Jewish temple existing at the time of Christ's return.
    Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-22-2019 at 03:39 PM.

  7. #5
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Greater Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    36
    Amen (Given)
    25
    Amen (Received)
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I, too, have a problem with equating modern day Israel to the Israel of the Bible.
    Cow Poke!

    Well, if not modern day Israel, Ezekiel would have to be talking about ancient day Israel. The problem with that is that there is no fulfillment of the prophecy in the past. There is no graveyard called Hamon-Gog or city called Hamonah. Nor is there any Biblical record of an invading force from the north being destroyed by God in such a fashion. If the prophecy did not come to pass, that would mean God had not given it, and Ezekiel would have been stoned as a false prophet.

    As I see it, it has to be a future event - involving modern day Israel - or Ezekiel made a false prophecy. That, to me, is unacceptable (as I'm sure it is to you as well).

  8. #6
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    57,264
    Amen (Given)
    12433
    Amen (Received)
    26610
    Quote Originally Posted by xcav8tor View Post
    Cow Poke!

    Well, if not modern day Israel, Ezekiel would have to be talking about ancient day Israel. The problem with that is that there is no fulfillment of the prophecy in the past. There is no graveyard called Hamon-Gog or city called Hamonah. Nor is there any Biblical record of an invading force from the north being destroyed by God in such a fashion. If the prophecy did not come to pass, that would mean God had not given it, and Ezekiel would have been stoned as a false prophet.

    As I see it, it has to be a future event - involving modern day Israel - or Ezekiel made a false prophecy. That, to me, is unacceptable (as I'm sure it is to you as well).
    Great to see you again!

    I just don't believe the date (or event) of the constitution of the nation-state of Israel in 1948 should be considered as a trigger to any part of prophecy. (except perhaps as a beginning of the Jews returning to their homeland, which, of course, is drastically different from the Bible Israel)
    DuckDuckGo - Privacy Simplified

  9. #7
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    21,358
    Amen (Given)
    6337
    Amen (Received)
    12114
    Quote Originally Posted by xcav8tor View Post
    Hi One Bad Pig,

    Been a long time. Glad to see you're still here.
    Right back atcha!
    Nothing whatever? Then how do you explain Zechariah 12:2, 3, 8-10, "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves... 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."? This speaks of Israel's repentance IN JERUSALEM at Christ's return. How can this be other than the Israel that exists today since 1948 - the same Jerusalem which virtually "all the nations of the earth" are aligned against today, just as described in this passage?

    And Zech. 14:2-4, "2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."? This speaks of Christ's return to the mount of Olives IN JERUSALEM, ISRAEL - where He ascended and to which the angel told the disciples He would return (Acts 1:7-12). How can this not be referring to the Israel of today (and therefore the Israel of prophecy)?
    I am very wary of taking apocalyptic imagery literally. As I understand it, in Christian interpretation the Church is the New Jerusalem - in which case we're not talking about literal geography at all. I just got a translation of Didymus the Blind's commentary on Zechariah; I'll take a look at that and get back to you.
    Of course, Ezekiel would have described people groups from his day, but they can be translated to modern nations by tracking the people from those areas and the historical use of ancient names. For instance, there is no doubt that ancient Persian is currently the people of Iran.
    You'll note I didn't push back on that one.
    Rosh is Russia, etc.
    This looks suspiciously like "sounds similar, so must be." Across languages, that's a very shaky proposition.
    So while Ezekiel wouldn't use today's national names (the people of his day wouldn't know who he was talking about), we can be relatively certain which nations are involved. "From the Uttermost North" is a great clue for Russia, since Moscow itself lies directly north of Jerusalem.
    ...if you're being strictly literal, yes - which, as I said, I have issues with.
    There are a few of ways the Dome of the Rock problem could be resolved. One is that the original site of Solomon's temple was in the City of David, to the west of the Temple Mount (where a church currently sits). If this site is verified, problem solved. Another is that the Dome is not actually where the original temple stood either, and that the new temple could be build around it, leaving the Dome in the Court of the Gentiles.
    I've seen fairly convincing evidence that the Dome is centered on the Holy of Holies.

    In addition, there are rumors that the Dome itself is currently falling apart (the Muslims are blaming the Jews for deliberately undermining the foundations), so if an earthquake perhaps brought the building down, it may be resolved that way. Time will tell.
    There is no possible way that Muslims would allow anything else to be built there even if the Dome did collapse.
    What we do know is that Daniel (Dan. 9:27), Jesus (Matt. 24:15, 21, 27, 30) Paul (2 Thess. 2:1-4) and John (Rev. 11:1, 2) all spoke of a Jewish temple existing at the time of Christ's return.
    As a preterist, most of those refer to Christ's coming in power to visit destruction on Jerusalem in AD 70. For his part, Paul spoke of us being God's temple (1 Cor 3).
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  10. Amen Littlejoe amen'd this post.
  11. #8
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    North Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,359
    Amen (Given)
    1848
    Amen (Received)
    1876
    Quote Originally Posted by xcav8tor View Post
    Ezekiel 36 to 39 describe a series of events to take place in "the Last Days," beginning with the restoration of Israel as a nation (which took place in 1948) after a worldwide dispersion. Israel has since flourished economically and in the last 10 years has developed oil and gas reserves worth $100 billion (providing the spoil given as the motivation for Gog's attack). Currently, Russia, Turkey and Iran (the key allies mentioned in the text) have aligned themselves politically and amassed their combined military forces in Syria just north of Israel (the northern direction from which the prophesied invasion of Israel is to take place). There has been recent earthquake activity in the Golan Heights (one of the interventions God will use to destroy the invaders - along with friendly fire, hail, fire and brimstone). We know this attack has not yet taken place, because Israel has never buried the bodies of any invaders in a valley named, Hamon-Gog near a city called Hamonah. They do not yet exist.

    From the Futurist perspective, this invasion could not take place within the 7 year Tribulation Period (the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, Dan. 9:24-27) because Israel is to use the enemy's weapons as fuel for 7 years - something they will not likely be doing while running for their lives from the antichrist after he turns on them after defiling the rebuild temple in the middle of the Tribulation. This would suggest the invasion of Gog must take place at least 3 1/2 years prior to the beginning of the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. Btw, Israel has already created all the furniture and implements required to reinstate Mosaic sacrifice (including the Menora, the Altar, the Breastplate and Crown of the High Priest, etc. They have the blueprints and financing ready for the temple, have chosen a High Priest, have reconvened the Sanhedrin, found the ancient anointing oil, procured a pure red heifer, and have said they know where the Ark of the Covenant currently resides).

    With all this in mind, what do you think is the likelihood that the invasion of Israel as foretold by the prophet Ezekiel may be "right around the corner"?

    Or is all this to be written off as a long, long, long series of mere coincidences?
    Well, Ezekiel wrote during the Babylonian captivity, so I would think most of his prophecy would have to do with the 2nd Temple, not a possible 3rd temple. Many (most) Amillennial and Orthodox Preterist would see Eze. 36 and the beginning of the Church age or the establishment of the New Covenant when the Messianic Kingdom was established by Christ. Look at Eze. 36:22 - 38. I agree with OBP and CP, I don't think Ezekiel (a contemporary of Jeremiah, Zephaniah and Habakkuk) was writing about a present day Israel but one to come out of the captivity/exile of Babylon and later, Persia.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  12. #9
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southeastern U.S. of A.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    53,813
    Amen (Given)
    1145
    Amen (Received)
    19841
    Quote Originally Posted by xcav8tor View Post
    Rosh is Russia, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    This looks suspiciously like "sounds similar, so must be." Across languages, that's a very shaky proposition.
    IIRC, it was the Scofield Reference Bible that popularized the equating of "Rosh" with "Russia" although several decades earlier the conservative Lutheran Old Testament scholar Carl Friedrich Keil brought up the possibility. OTOH, Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, which came out at the same time as Scofield restricts the identification of Rosh to the seventh son of Benjamin.

    Probably one of the biggest obstacles to identifying Rosh as Russia is that the name Rosh as a nation did not exist in Ezekiel's time and hasn't since then in that the modern name of Russia comes from a Norse word "Rus" who were an early medieval group of early Vikings which gave their name to the lands of Russia, Ruthenia, and Belarus. So the name roughly dates back to nearly 2000 years after the book of Ezekiel was written.

    FWICT (and I may be wrong) the view that Rosh is Russia seems fairly popular among supporters of dispensational premillennialism but even one of its most notable proponents Charles Caldwell Ryrie has argued that "The prince of Rosh" mentioned in some translations of Ezekiel 38:2 is better translated as "the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" and notes in his own study Bible that

    Meshech and Tubal are not linked with a place called Rosh (8) in any other place in the Bible (Gen. 10:2; 1 Chron. 1:5; Isa. 66:19;8 Ezek. 27:13; 32:26), so it is extremely unlikely that in these two cases alone rosh takes on an entirely different meaning from the way it is used elsewhere in the Old Testament.


    It should also be noted that Meshech was identified by Flavius Josephus with the Cappadocian "Mosocheni" (Mushki, also associated with Phrygians or Bryges) and their capital Mazaca, which was in central Antolia, not modern Russia.

    Just some food for thought.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  13. #10
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Greater Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    36
    Amen (Given)
    25
    Amen (Received)
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I've seen fairly convincing evidence that the Dome is centered on the Holy of Holies.
    Fair enough, but there is other evidence which suggests otherwise. Consider this. https://youtu.be/vgCyD9AcDp4

    I'll try to address some of your other comments asap.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •