244 die in Hajj stampede.

[AtheistArchon]

- All I have to say here is:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ede/index.html

MECCA, Saudi Arabia (CNN) -- A stampede Sunday morning killed 244 Muslim pilgrims and injured another 244 at a stone-throwing ritual which has been the source of deadly tramplings in the past, according to Saudi's health minister.

The incident happened around 9 a.m. (0600 GMT) during the annual Hajj pilgrimage. The health minister said the stampede lasted for about 27 minutes before the crowd was brought under control. The stoning ritual has since resumed.

[$cirisme]

And the point of the ritual is...?

[Rusty T]

To stone Satan I believe . . . symbolically? I dont' know. ..

[AtheistArchon]

- To symbolically smack Satan in the noggin with a pebble. In 1990, 1400 people died.

- Like I said:

- I will never understand these people.

[studyhound]

Fanatics never make any sense :exe:

[Jme]

The History of the Hajj

Four thousand years ago the valley of Mecca was a dry and uninhabited place.

Muslims believe the Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) was instructed to bring his wife, Hajira (Hagar) and their child Is'mail to Arabia from Palestine to protect them from the jealousy of Ibrahim’s first wife Sarah.

Allah told the Prophet Ibrahim to leave them on their own, and he did so, with some supplies of food and water. However the supplies quickly ran out and within a few days Hajira and Is’mail were suffering from hunger and dehydration.

In her desperation Hajira ran up and down two hills called Safa and Marwa trying to see if she could spot any help in the distance. Finally she collapsed beside Is'mail and prayed to Allah for deliverance.

Is'mail struck his foot on the ground and this caused a spring of water to gush forth from the earth. Hajira and Is'mail were saved. Now they had a secure water supply they were able to trade water with passing nomads for food and supplies.
After a while the Prophet Ibrahim returned from Palestine to check on his family and was amazed to see them running a profitable well.

The Prophet Ibrahim was told by Allah to build a shrine dedicated to him. Ibrahim and Is'mail constructed a small stone structure – the Kaaba or Cube - which was to be the gathering place for all who wished to strengthen their faith in Allah.

As the years passed Is'mail was blessed with Prophethood and he gave the nomads of the desert the message of surrender to Allah.

After many centuries, Mecca became a thriving city, due to its reliable water source, the well of Zam Zam.

Gradually, the people began to adopt polytheistic ideas, and worship spirits and many different gods. The shrine of the Prophet Ibrahim was used to store idols.

After many years, Allah told the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) that he should restore the Kaaba to the worship of Allah only.

In the year 628 the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) set out on a journey with 1400 of his followers. This was the first pilgrimage in Islam, and would re-establish the religious traditions of the Prophet Ibrahim.

Got this off the Beeb - http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi.../history.shtml

[Pilgrim]

It stupifies the mind. I think this is more about mob mentality than it is about a faith issue though.

[Epoetker]

Let's check what authorities reccomend the pilgrims do:

79. Every year there is invariably a stampede or stampede condition at the site of stoning of the Jamarat. There are two levels from which pilgrims can perform Rami (stoning) Jamarat. Pilgrims should only go to the Jamarat at times allocated for them by the Saudi authorities. Indian Haj officials will come and escort them to the Jamarat at these timings along with officials of the Maktab. In this manner stoning can be done with ease. Pilgrims should never get stuck in a crowd that is not moving or that is observably stationary. They should choose the ground or the top level for stoning as per the assessment of the crowd. Old, infirm, children and women, who are not able to withstand the strain, can depute someone else to stone on their behalf. If it is found that Jamarat site is overcrowded or the movement there is very slow, it is better to turn back immediately and go back to the camp. Keep away from crowds. Pilgrims can go back for the ritual at a better time. One must also be very alert to the fact that some pilgrims of certain nationalities come in bunches and batches and push their way through. Pilgrims should not get into their way or try to stop them as one could get harmed in the process. It will be more sensible to avoid their path and wait till they get out. Do not try to go against the direction of the crowd. Move with the crowd. Do not lose temper and do not fight with others. If required, pilgrims can retrace steps after the rush has passed. It is advisable to move in groups from the camps with the assistance of the Khadim ul Hujaj. The South Asian Moassasa provides schedules for pilgrims according to which they will permit movement for the Jamarat. This will assist pilgrims in finding out the best time for stoning Jamarat.

80. Pilgrims need to remember that there is no need to hurry in any situation. Islam does not enjoin you to suffer bodily harm or risk your life. There are always options available and hence there is no need to hurry and in the process get harmed.

LGF says that:

the “stoning” ritual and accompanying deadly stampedes are a form of human sacrifice that is tacitly condoned. Everyone involved knows there’s a great likelihood of mass casualties, yet the pilgrims don’t modify their behavior and the authorities don’t institute effective counter-measures. It’s a state-sanctioned blood ritual; they’re not putting people on altars and ripping their hearts out like the Aztecs did, but it’s only one step away.

Good support for this assertion comes from AP's interview with Iyad Madani:

All precautions were taken to prevent such an incident, but this is God's will. Caution isn't stronger than fate," Madani said.

I would have answered this, but once again, LGF did it better:

But who are we to judge the traditions of other cultures? Just last Christmas, Betty Jo Biolovsky tore a fingernail while battling for the last scrap of potato salad at a church social in Peoria. Isn’t that really the same thing?

[Chuck Lee]

It demonstrates that humans don't perform terribly well as herd animals.

[AtheistArchon]

- And now, a cute joke sent to me by my mother.

> Two Arabs are chatting. One of them has his wallet out and is flipping
> through pictures. Proudly, he pulls two out to show his friend. "This
> is my oldest son He's a martyr. And here is my second son. He's a
> martyr, too." There's a pause, and the second Arab says wistfully, "Ah,
> they blow up so fast, don't they?"

[Vorkosigan]

We could probably pull up hundreds of examples of mob mentalities from various faiths, beliefs, and identities.

And 'pet, I run across the same mentality here in Taiwan all the time, sometimes in reverse ("it is not my fate....")

TURTON: How come you didn't at least look before you made that illegal right turn?
TAIWANESE DRIVER: If you look before you turn, you might have an accident. And anyway, it is not my fate to have an accident while turning.

[AtheistArchon]

TURTON: How come you didn't at least look before you made that illegal right turn?
TAIWANESE DRIVER: If you look before you turn, you might have an accident. And anyway, it is not my fate to have an accident while turning.

- Tell me you're making that up?

[Epoetker]

Not likely. Fatalism seems to be the spirit of the area I'm in, and it extends to driving. No reason why it shouldn't apply to Taiwan too.

[Jimmy Higgins]

TURTON: How come you didn't at least look before you made that illegal right turn?
TAIWANESE DRIVER: If you look before you turn, you might have an accident. And anyway, it is not my fate to have an accident while turning.

Funny, well not really. I saw three people driving today with that mentality, two in Minivans, one in a pickup.

[Vorkosigan]

- Tell me you're making that up?

Don't I wish. If I had a nickel for every time some idjit local explained to me that looking before pulling out causes accidents.....someday I'll post some video from my early morning drive. It will send you all scurrying for the ulcer meds....