Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 144

Thread: The evidence of a Tigris Euphrates Noah flood about 2900 BCE

  1. #1
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    14,192
    Amen (Given)
    1529
    Amen (Received)
    964

    The evidence of a Tigris Euphrates Noah flood about 2900 BCE

    Geologic and archaeological research has revealed the most likely candidate for the basis of the story of Noah's flood. If this has not been posted before here it is again:

    Some have in the past proposed the Black Sea filling event for the flood, but I believe this fits better.


    [cite=https://ncse.com/library-resource/yes-noahs-flood-may-have-happened-not-over-whole-earth]

    Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth

    Scientific Evidence Against a Whole-Earth Flood
    The Bible says that the rains that created the Noachian Flood lasted for 40 days (Genesis 7:17), that the waters prevailed on the earth for 150 days (Genesis 7:24), and after these 150 days the waters gradually receded from the earth so that by the seventh month and the seventeenth day, Noah's Ark came to rest upon the mountains of Ararat (Genesis 8:4). A year plus two months and twenty-seven days later the earth was dry enough so that Noah,his family, and the load of animals could disembark from the Ark (Genesis 8:14).

    Because this flood was intended by God to destroy all flesh on earth (Genesis 6:13) and because sedimentary rocks on all continents contain fossils that supposedly represent the "destroyed flesh of all life," it might be thought that the Bible story, describing a wholeearth flood, was true. However, interlayered with these fossil-bearing sedimentary rocks on all continents are layers of evaporite rock salt (sodium chloride), gypsum (hydrated calcium sulfate), anhydrite (calcium sulfate), and various potash and magnesium salts, which are associated with red beds (shales) containing fossilized mud cracks (Schreiber and others 2007).

    Many of these mineral compounds and red beds have combined thicknesses on different continents of more than one kilometer (~3,281 feet) (Collins 2006). The red beds are red because they contain red hematite (iron oxide) which formed from magnetite grains that were oxidized while the muds were exposed to oxygen in open air. The mud cracks can form only under drying conditions that cause the mud to shrink and form polygonal cracks. The evaporite mineral compounds in the layers are deposited in the correct chemical order predicted by the solubility of each kind of ion in these compounds and whose increasing concentrations during the evaporation of water would cause them to precipitate in a predictable depositional sequence as the water volume decreased. Such evaporite deposits would be expected to occur where a marine sea was once present and to disappear when the sea became completely dry. Therefore, one could expect these evaporites to be at the top of the supposed Noachian Flood deposits when the water supposedly receded and the land dried out, but certainly not in different levels in between older and younger fossiliferous "Flood deposits".

    We read in the Bible that there is only one time in which the Flood waters are said to recede and leave the earth dry. That is, no multiple worldwide climatic conditions are described in which flooding, then drying to a dry earth, more flooding, more drying to a dry earth, in repeated cycles that occur over and over again in that Flood year. On that basis, it is logical that all the kinds of evaporite deposits and red beds in many different levels in the supposed Noachian Flood deposits could form only in local climates with desert drying-conditions and could not possibly have formed all at the same time — a time when a flood covered the whole earth for more than one year (Collins 2006). On that basis, the Noachian Flood story cannot describe a whole-earth flood, but it could only represent a large regional flood.

    Regional Evidence for the Noachian and Similar Floods
    Two rivers, the Euphrates and Tigris flow through Mesopotamia, which is now the country of Iraq (Figure 1). There are several layers in exposed rocks near these two rivers in southeastern Mesopotamia (Iraq) that are likely flood deposits. Most are about a foot (0.3 m) thick, but one is as much as 3 meters thick (MacDonald 1988). Flood debris from this same thick deposit along the Euphrates River near the ancient Sumerian city of Shuruppak about 200 km southeast of Baghdad has been dated by the C14 method, giving an age of 2900 BCE (Best nd). Flood deposits 2.4 meters feet thick are also reported by MacDonald (1988) as far northeast as the ancient Babylonian city of Kish (120 km south of Baghdad). At any rate, the many flood-deposit layers show that flooding in southeastern Mesopotamia was not unusual in ancient times. [cite]
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-08-2018 at 07:43 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #2
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,199
    Amen (Given)
    382
    Amen (Received)
    219
    Interesting! I do believe there is an indication of a local flood in the Genesis account, as the flood was dispersed by wind (Gen. 8:1), which would not disperse a global flood.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  3. #3
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Near my best friend (see photo above)
    Faith
    Catholic XPian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    662
    Amen (Given)
    1907
    Amen (Received)
    132
    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Geologic and archaeological research has revealed the most likely candidate for the basis of the story of Noah's flood. If this has not been posted before here it is again:

    Some have in the past proposed the Black Sea filling event for the flood, but I believe this fits better.


    [cite=https://ncse.com/library-resource/yes-noahs-flood-may-have-happened-not-over-whole-earth]

    Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth

    Scientific Evidence Against a Whole-Earth Flood
    The Bible says that the rains that created the Noachian Flood lasted for 40 days (Genesis 7:17), that the waters prevailed on the earth for 150 days (Genesis 7:24), and after these 150 days the waters gradually receded from the earth so that by the seventh month and the seventeenth day, Noah's Ark came to rest upon the mountains of Ararat (Genesis 8:4). A year plus two months and twenty-seven days later the earth was dry enough so that Noah,his family, and the load of animals could disembark from the Ark (Genesis 8:14).

    Because this flood was intended by God to destroy all flesh on earth (Genesis 6:13) and because sedimentary rocks on all continents contain fossils that supposedly represent the "destroyed flesh of all life," it might be thought that the Bible story, describing a wholeearth flood, was true. However, interlayered with these fossil-bearing sedimentary rocks on all continents are layers of evaporite rock salt (sodium chloride), gypsum (hydrated calcium sulfate), anhydrite (calcium sulfate), and various potash and magnesium salts, which are associated with red beds (shales) containing fossilized mud cracks (Schreiber and others 2007).

    Many of these mineral compounds and red beds have combined thicknesses on different continents of more than one kilometer (~3,281 feet) (Collins 2006). The red beds are red because they contain red hematite (iron oxide) which formed from magnetite grains that were oxidized while the muds were exposed to oxygen in open air. The mud cracks can form only under drying conditions that cause the mud to shrink and form polygonal cracks. The evaporite mineral compounds in the layers are deposited in the correct chemical order predicted by the solubility of each kind of ion in these compounds and whose increasing concentrations during the evaporation of water would cause them to precipitate in a predictable depositional sequence as the water volume decreased. Such evaporite deposits would be expected to occur where a marine sea was once present and to disappear when the sea became completely dry. Therefore, one could expect these evaporites to be at the top of the supposed Noachian Flood deposits when the water supposedly receded and the land dried out, but certainly not in different levels in between older and younger fossiliferous "Flood deposits".

    We read in the Bible that there is only one time in which the Flood waters are said to recede and leave the earth dry. That is, no multiple worldwide climatic conditions are described in which flooding, then drying to a dry earth, more flooding, more drying to a dry earth, in repeated cycles that occur over and over again in that Flood year. On that basis, it is logical that all the kinds of evaporite deposits and red beds in many different levels in the supposed Noachian Flood deposits could form only in local climates with desert drying-conditions and could not possibly have formed all at the same time — a time when a flood covered the whole earth for more than one year (Collins 2006). On that basis, the Noachian Flood story cannot describe a whole-earth flood, but it could only represent a large regional flood.

    Regional Evidence for the Noachian and Similar Floods
    Two rivers, the Euphrates and Tigris flow through Mesopotamia, which is now the country of Iraq (Figure 1). There are several layers in exposed rocks near these two rivers in southeastern Mesopotamia (Iraq) that are likely flood deposits. Most are about a foot (0.3 m) thick, but one is as much as 3 meters thick (MacDonald 1988). Flood debris from this same thick deposit along the Euphrates River near the ancient Sumerian city of Shuruppak about 200 km southeast of Baghdad has been dated by the C14 method, giving an age of 2900 BCE (Best nd). Flood deposits 2.4 meters feet thick are also reported by MacDonald (1988) as far northeast as the ancient Babylonian city of Kish (120 km south of Baghdad). At any rate, the many flood-deposit layers show that flooding in southeastern Mesopotamia was not unusual in ancient times. [cite]
    If the flood was global from the POV of an author writing about it, that it would not be global from the POV of someone else much later with more accurate geographical ideas, would be of much less importance.

    If a text says that event X affected all mankind (or uses words to that effect), it does not immediately follow that what was universal for the writer of the text, must be equally universal for a much later reader. The Genesis flood can perfectly well have been universal from one POV, and geographically restricted from another. When the kings of Assyria claimed to be “king[s] of the world”, they were not claiming dominion over Scotland, Australia, the Americas, Japan, the Falkland Islands or even Italy. No-one reads them as making any such claim. Only when such language is used in the Bible do people insist that such language must be decontextualised and read, not with ancient geographical knowledge in mind, but from the POV of authors well aware that the world is a much larger place than Sumerians, Assyrians or Israelites supposed.

    AFAICS, the 2900 BC flood is probably the, or a, source of the Sumerian flood-legend; which is behind the flood-legend preserved in Tablet 11 of the Akkadian Gilgamesh Epic, and behind the Atra-hasis legend; one or both of which circulated in Israel; and so (it seems) came to be included in the traditions that were written into what is now the Book of Genesis.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 05-22-2019 at 04:36 PM.

  4. #4
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southeastern U.S. of A.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    51,618
    Amen (Given)
    1091
    Amen (Received)
    18774
    This kinda leads into a discussion concerning the use of "all" in the Bible and just how literally it should be taken in some instances.

    During the account of the Flood itself we read that all flesh had become corrupted; yet the text also says that Noah was a "righteous man, blameless in his time." Thus, "all flesh" doesn’t mean all flesh since there was at least one exception. All does not mean all.

    Likewise, Gen 3:20 pronounces Eve as "the mother of all living." Literally, that means that all life originated from a human woman, Eve, which nobody contends this is the case.

    Are there other instances when "all" does not literally mean "all"? Definitely.

    "Moreover, all the earth came to Egypt to Joseph to buy grain, because the famine was severe over all the earth" (Genesis 41:57). Did starving Australian Aborigines come to Joseph seeking food? How about Inuits? Similarly, the famine predicted by Agabus that "took place in the days of Claudius" was said to have occurred "over all the world" (Acts 11:28).

    "And the fame of David went out into all lands, and the Lord brought the fear of him upon all nations" (I Chronicles 14:17). Apparently American Indians were quaking in fear at David’s reputation. But then they were apparently consoled when Solomon’s reign began because now "the whole earth sought the presence of Solomon to hear his wisdom" (I Kings 19:11).

    "And horses were imported for Solomon from Egypt and from all lands"(II Chronicles 9:28).

    "All the kings of the earth sought the presence of Solomon, to hear his wisdom." (II Chronicles 9:23) – does this include rulers in America as well?

    "In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled" (Lk 2:1). In this case "all the world" means only the Roman Empire.

    Likewise, when Cyrus declares in II Chronicles 36:23 that God "has given me all the kingdoms of the earth" he meant only the lands controlled by the Persian Empire.

    "For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened" (Exodus 10:15 – KJV), though verses 12, 14 make it clear that it meant only the land of Egypt and why some other versions choose to use "whole land" instead of "whole earth."

    Mark 1:5 tells us that "all the land of Judea" were baptized by John in the wilderness. Of course, we understand from the context that this does not literally mean every single human in the land of Judea.

    Mark 4:34 says Jesus taught His disciples about "all things," but does anyone serious believe this included details of such things like space travel, advanced calculus and the sex life of sea slugs?

    And Paul explicitly stated that the entire world was hearing the gospel (Romans 1:8; Colossians 1:6; cf. I Timothy 3:16). Later Christian theologians used these passages as "proof" that no one could possibly be living on the other side of the world. The Bible said it, they believed it, and that settled it. Nevertheless, millions of Native Americans lived in the Americas despite the theologian’s ideological objections.

    These are only a few examples illustrating the fact that all does not always literally mean all.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  5. #5
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    United States
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    16,907
    Amen (Given)
    5656
    Amen (Received)
    5927
    "We read in the Bible that there is only one time in which the Flood waters are said to recede and leave the earth dry. That is, no multiple worldwide climatic conditions are described in which flooding, then drying to a dry earth, more flooding, more drying to a dry earth, in repeated cycles that occur over and over again in that Flood year."

    That sounds like an argument from silence. The story of Noah is naturally told from the perspective of Noah and his family who were, according to the Bible, the only living humans at the time. We have no idea what might have been happening globally.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  6. #6
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    United States
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    16,907
    Amen (Given)
    5656
    Amen (Received)
    5927
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Interesting! I do believe there is an indication of a local flood in the Genesis account, as the flood was dispersed by wind (Gen. 8:1), which would not disperse a global flood.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    We don't necessarily know that it was wind that dispersed the flood globally. That may have been the impression of Noah and his family, but again, they wouldn't have necessarily had knowledge of what was happening globally.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  7. #7
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southeastern U.S. of A.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    51,618
    Amen (Given)
    1091
    Amen (Received)
    18774
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    We don't necessarily know that it was wind that dispersed the flood globally. That may have been the impression of Noah and his family, but again, they wouldn't have necessarily had knowledge of what was happening globally.
    Geologically speaking, not is there no evidence for a relatively recent global flood but all the evidence we have points against it.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  8. #8
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    United States
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    16,907
    Amen (Given)
    5656
    Amen (Received)
    5927
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Geologically speaking, not is there no evidence for a relatively recent global flood but all the evidence we have points against it.
    It's possible it was a series of localized floods. The point is, we only know what Noah and his family witnessed.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  9. #9
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    DownUnder
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,958
    Amen (Given)
    202
    Amen (Received)
    852
    It has long been a source of some bemusement that, while the story of Noah does describe a near extinction event (for humans), the small matter of an olive tree surviving the devastation does not feature in evaluations of the flood's extent.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  10. #10
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    United States
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    16,907
    Amen (Given)
    5656
    Amen (Received)
    5927
    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    It has long been a source of some bemusement that, while the story of Noah does describe a near extinction event (for humans), the small matter of an olive tree surviving the devastation does not feature in evaluations of the flood's extent.
    It's entirely plausible that an olive tree sprouted from a seed that survived the flood.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •