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Thread: The evidence of a Tigris Euphrates Noah flood about 2900 BCE

  1. #71
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    where? It says " I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish

    He seems to be making the point that everything is going to die. He makes the point over and over in different ways. The context is pretty clear. It seems like you have to do a lot of ignoring of context and chopping things into pieces in order to make it say it is local.

    You guys are taking natural evidence that there was not a global flood, then working backwards to make that fit into the narrative, no matter how hard you have to shoehorn it in. That is eisegesis. The plain reading of the text shows it means globally. Now you can argue that the text is wrong, but I don't think you can argue that the writer (Moses?) MEANT it was a local flood because he goes to some length to make it read as a worldwide flood.
    In both Heiser's work, and in Walton and Longman's they offer examples of "all life," and even "under the heavens," and how these phrases are used rhetorically. These are Old Testament scholars. They're reading these passages in the Hebrew. They recognize them for what they are...exaggerations. Common exaggerations. You don't have to chop things into pieces to see that, it's perfectly clear to those who know the Hebrew, and the context of this sort of rhetoric in the ancient world. This isn't eisegesis, it's exegesis. Wouldn't an Old Testament Bible scholar be able to tell the difference? I don't think the text is wrong. I think the text is right, and that it's often been read wrong.

    And I've stated (as did Heiser) that I am NOT taking natural evidence about the unlikelihood that there was a global flood and working backwards.

    Do you really think that people in South America, or Korea, or Australia were afraid of Israel when the Bible says,

    Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 2:24

    “Set out now and cross the Arnon Gorge. See, I have given into your hand Sihon the Amorite, king of Heshbon, and his country. Begin to take possession of it and engage him in battle. 25 This very day I will begin to put the terror and fear of you on all the nations under heaven. They will hear reports of you and will tremble and be in anguish because of you.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Did that ever happen universally? No. People beyond the Mediterranean never even heard of the people of Israel. What the Bible says did happen though. It happened among all the nations of the region under the heaven, not all nations everywhere universally.
    Last edited by Adrift; 06-06-2019 at 11:27 AM.

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  3. #72
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The fish are excluded above in verse 7, where God says all of the creatures that move along the ground and the birds.

    7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
    I'm not sure that excludes fish since fish are animals and AFAICT were regarded as such by the ancient Israelites. There are three groups mentioned along with humanity, animals, birds and "creatures that move along the ground" which IIRC is generally interpreted to mean bugs, worms and the like. But if all life was extinguished (except for what was inside Noah's Ark) that would include fish and other sea creatures.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  4. #73
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    The bolded bit often gets ignored by those insisting that all life under heaven had been exterminated. Given that Noah didn't appear to take any fish or other aquatic animals aboard the Ark I think it is reasonable to say that not all life under heaven had been exterminated (never mind the fact that sea creatures manage just fine during floods).
    Genesis 7: 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
    20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

    22 All in whose nostrils was the breath [d]of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. 23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth.

    2 Peter 3:6-7 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    I do not believe it stated that the life in the oceans and seas were whipped out.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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