Originally posted by Tassman
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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The evidence of a Tigris Euphrates Noah flood about 2900 BCE
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostNot at all. The Islamic contribution to the evolution of the Scientific Method in the West was significant
First you said:
Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere was no science as we know it until the work of Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543) and Galileo Galilei (1564-1642).
Originally posted by Tassman View PostOh certainly. Islamic scientific achievements during its Golden Age had a considerable impact on European scientific development.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Keep wiggling Tassy.
He did not achieve all this in a vacuum, obviously. Others played a part including Muslims. Its scholars contributed new insights in their fields and ultimately passed their discoveries along to Europe.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Posthttps://www.famousscientists.org/francis-bacon/
He did not achieve all this in a vacuum, obviously. Others played a part including Muslims. Its scholars contributed new insights in their fields and ultimately passed their discoveries along to Europe.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat was just your wiggling after we pointed out you were wrong in the first place when you tried to claim that the Geocentric model was theology and not science. But now you are claiming that muslims were scientists before you claimed that science even existed, showing not only were you wrong in the first place but since you think that geocentrism is a Christian thing, you are a religious bigot since you accept muslims as scientists and claim the Europeans were not. Never mind that the muslims also believed in a geocentric universe.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat was just your wiggling after we pointed out you were wrong in the first place when you tried to claim that the Geocentric model was theology and not science. But now you are claiming that muslims were scientists before you claimed that science even existed, showing not only were you wrong in the first place but since you think that geocentrism is a Christian thing, you are a religious bigot since you accept muslims as scientists and claim the Europeans were not. Never mind that the muslims also believed in a geocentric universe.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostYou appear to have completely missed the point. My argument is the natural philosophy of Aristotle, which constituted the (as per Adrift's comment), vis-a-vis the scientific method utilized by the likes of Copernicus and Galileo and formalized by Sir Francis Bacon. As previously linked: The majority who claimed a geocentric universe, including at the time theologians, based this concept on the natural philosophy of Aristotle, but Aristotelian methodology was superseded by the empiricism of the scientific method.Originally posted by Adrift View PostWhy in the world are you conflating my use of the phrase "settled science of the day" (actually MM's usage which I agreed with), with modern "scientific method?"
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhat I said was that the bible never says anything about the sun orbiting the earth, or the planets, or any other detail of the Geocentric model. The Geocentric model was a scientific theory, as scientific as Copernicus's theory. Based on observations and math, it gave an accurate prediction of the positions of the planets, stars, sun and moon. None of those details are mentioned in the bible. Feel free to show me wrong FROM THE BIBLE.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostLOL
First you said:
Then you said:
Keep wiggling Tassy."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWhat about folks like Nicholas Oresme, Albertus Magnus, William of Conches, Robert Grosseteste, Duns Scotus, Thomas Bradwardine, William Heytesbury, Richard Swineshead, Walter Burley, Adelard of Bath, John Dumbleton, John Peckham, Bernard Silvestris, Richard of Wallingford and Jean Buridan?
Thanks to John William Draper, Andrew Dickson White and to slightly lesser extent Thomas Huxley the myth of the Dark Ages became popular but later scholarship has utterly debunked the concept to the point that the term has been abandoned by scholars today (preferring to use "Early Middle Ages" or just "Middle Ages") because there isn't much evidence that life was any worse than during the periods before or after it.
In fact they've come to understand that not only wasn't the Christian church responsible for killing science but rather it was actually largely responsible for preserving it as a succession of one "barbarian" horde after another overran Europe for several hundred years[1] reducing the Roman Empire to nothing but dust and vague memories.
What is ironic is that one of the first people to debunk the Dark Ages myth, the French physicist and mathematician Pierre Duhem, faced a great deal of resistance from the anti-clerical elements in the intellectual elite of his time who worked to keep his from being published. It wasn't until a little over 40 years after his death, and largely due to the efforts of his daughter Helene that the entire ten volume work was finally published in 1959.
It would do you good to read a bit of what modern scholarship has to say about the scientific achievements during Medieval times and could do worse than checking out David C. Lindberg's The Beginnings of Western Science, 600 B.C. to A.D. 1450 (1992), Ronald Numbers' Galileo Goes to Jail, and Other Myths about Science and Religion (2009), Edward Grant's The Foundations of Modern Science in the Middle Ages (1996) and God and Reason in the Middle Ages (2001), and James Hannam's God's Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science (2009).
In fact here is what an atheist reviewer of the last work had to say about the entire "Dark Ages" myth:
O'Neill says a great deal more concerning the topic which can be seen by following the link provided. And keep in mind, this is an atheist source and not from a Christian apologist.
1. First came the Germanic tribes like the various Goths, Vandals, Angles, Saxons, Lombards, Suebi, Frisii, Jutes and Franks, followed by groups like the Huns, Avars, Slavs, Bulgars and Alans and finally the Vikings, Normans, Hungarians and Moors.
https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/...-society-prize"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostI have just found this post. You might be interested in the 2010 article by Charles Freeman in New Humanist where he offers a critique of Hannam's opus.
https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/...-society-prize
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostExcellent article, and yes the Christian leadership in Medieval Europe in the advancement of science and the enlightenment is badly over rated.
I am reading the Iraqi/English nuclear physicist, Jim al-Khalili's Pathfinders: The Golden Age of Arabic Science at the moment. An important aspect of Islamic culture that many here do not wish to address or [for some] even recognise!"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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