Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The evidence of a Tigris Euphrates Noah flood about 2900 BCE

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    Oh certainly. Islamic scientific achievements during its Golden Age had a considerable impact on European scientific development.
    You realize you just admitted you were wrong before, right?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      You realize you just admitted you were wrong before, right?
      Not at all. The Islamic contribution to the evolution of the Scientific Method in the West was significant
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Not at all. The Islamic contribution to the evolution of the Scientific Method in the West was significant
        LOL

        First you said:

        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        There was no science as we know it until the work of Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543) and Galileo Galilei (1564-1642).
        Then you said:

        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Oh certainly. Islamic scientific achievements during its Golden Age had a considerable impact on European scientific development.
        Keep wiggling Tassy.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post



          Keep wiggling Tassy.
          What I said is the case. “Francis Bacon discovered and popularized the scientific method, whereby the laws of science are discovered by gathering and analyzing data from experiments and observations, rather than by using logic-based arguments”. “The Baconian method marked the beginning of the end for the 2,000-year-old natural philosophy of Aristotle, unleashing a wave of new scientific discoveries, particularly in the hands of devotees such as Robert Boyle".

          https://www.famousscientists.org/francis-bacon/

          He did not achieve all this in a vacuum, obviously. Others played a part including Muslims. Its scholars contributed new insights in their fields and ultimately passed their discoveries along to Europe.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            What I said is the case. “Francis Bacon discovered and popularized the scientific method, whereby the laws of science are discovered by gathering and analyzing data from experiments and observations, rather than by using logic-based arguments”. “The Baconian method marked the beginning of the end for the 2,000-year-old natural philosophy of Aristotle, unleashing a wave of new scientific discoveries, particularly in the hands of devotees such as Robert Boyle".

            https://www.famousscientists.org/francis-bacon/

            He did not achieve all this in a vacuum, obviously. Others played a part including Muslims. Its scholars contributed new insights in their fields and ultimately passed their discoveries along to Europe.
            That was just your wiggling after we pointed out you were wrong in the first place when you tried to claim that the Geocentric model was theology and not science. But now you are claiming that muslims were scientists before you claimed that science even existed, showing not only were you wrong in the first place but since you think that geocentrism is a Christian thing, you are a religious bigot since you accept muslims as scientists and claim the Europeans were not. Never mind that the muslims also believed in a geocentric universe.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              That was just your wiggling after we pointed out you were wrong in the first place when you tried to claim that the Geocentric model was theology and not science. But now you are claiming that muslims were scientists before you claimed that science even existed, showing not only were you wrong in the first place but since you think that geocentrism is a Christian thing, you are a religious bigot since you accept muslims as scientists and claim the Europeans were not. Never mind that the muslims also believed in a geocentric universe.
              This not th subject of the thread: The evidence of a Tigris Euphrates Noah flood about 2900 BCE
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                That was just your wiggling after we pointed out you were wrong in the first place when you tried to claim that the Geocentric model was theology and not science. But now you are claiming that muslims were scientists before you claimed that science even existed, showing not only were you wrong in the first place but since you think that geocentrism is a Christian thing, you are a religious bigot since you accept muslims as scientists and claim the Europeans were not. Never mind that the muslims also believed in a geocentric universe.
                You appear to have completely missed the point. My argument is the natural philosophy of Aristotle, which constituted the “the settled science of the day” (as per Adrift's comment), vis-a-vis the scientific method utilized by the likes of Copernicus and Galileo and formalized by Sir Francis Bacon. As previously linked: “The Baconian method marked the beginning of the end for the 2,000-year-old natural philosophy of Aristotle, unleashing a wave of new scientific discoveries”. The majority who claimed a geocentric universe, including at the time theologians, based this concept on the natural philosophy of Aristotle, but Aristotelian methodology was superseded by the empiricism of the scientific method.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  This not th subject of the thread: The evidence of a Tigris Euphrates Noah flood about 2900 BCE
                  Sorry for the derail.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    You appear to have completely missed the point. My argument is the natural philosophy of Aristotle, which constituted the “the settled science of the day” (as per Adrift's comment), vis-a-vis the scientific method utilized by the likes of Copernicus and Galileo and formalized by Sir Francis Bacon. As previously linked: “The Baconian method marked the beginning of the end for the 2,000-year-old natural philosophy of Aristotle, unleashing a wave of new scientific discoveries”. The majority who claimed a geocentric universe, including at the time theologians, based this concept on the natural philosophy of Aristotle, but Aristotelian methodology was superseded by the empiricism of the scientific method.
                    He didn't miss your point. And,
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Why in the world are you conflating my use of the phrase "settled science of the day" (actually MM's usage which I agreed with), with modern "scientific method?"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      What I said was that the bible never says anything about the sun orbiting the earth, or the planets, or any other detail of the Geocentric model. The Geocentric model was a scientific theory, as scientific as Copernicus's theory. Based on observations and math, it gave an accurate prediction of the positions of the planets, stars, sun and moon. None of those details are mentioned in the bible. Feel free to show me wrong FROM THE BIBLE.
                      Just out of curiosity what sort of observations and maths led to the formation of the geocentric model and what were the accurate predictions it was able to make?

                      I thought a geocentric model would’ve been kind of the default position but my science knowledge is only from high school and I barely remember much anyway. How was it able to accurately predict the position of stars? Is it just seeing a star in a location one day and predicting it will be in that same spot tomorrow?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        LOL

                        First you said:



                        Then you said:



                        Keep wiggling Tassy.
                        If you are not teetotal and enjoy a glass of something distilled now and again, remember to thank those Muslims.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          What about folks like Nicholas Oresme, Albertus Magnus, William of Conches, Robert Grosseteste, Duns Scotus, Thomas Bradwardine, William Heytesbury, Richard Swineshead, Walter Burley, Adelard of Bath, John Dumbleton, John Peckham, Bernard Silvestris, Richard of Wallingford and Jean Buridan?

                          Thanks to John William Draper, Andrew Dickson White and to slightly lesser extent Thomas Huxley the myth of the Dark Ages became popular but later scholarship has utterly debunked the concept to the point that the term has been abandoned by scholars today (preferring to use "Early Middle Ages" or just "Middle Ages") because there isn't much evidence that life was any worse than during the periods before or after it.

                          In fact they've come to understand that not only wasn't the Christian church responsible for killing science but rather it was actually largely responsible for preserving it as a succession of one "barbarian" horde after another overran Europe for several hundred years[1] reducing the Roman Empire to nothing but dust and vague memories.

                          What is ironic is that one of the first people to debunk the Dark Ages myth, the French physicist and mathematician Pierre Duhem, faced a great deal of resistance from the anti-clerical elements in the intellectual elite of his time who worked to keep his Systeme de Monde: Histoire des Doctrines cosmologiques de Platon ŕ Copernic from being published. It wasn't until a little over 40 years after his death, and largely due to the efforts of his daughter Helene that the entire ten volume work was finally published in 1959.

                          It would do you good to read a bit of what modern scholarship has to say about the scientific achievements during Medieval times and could do worse than checking out David C. Lindberg's The Beginnings of Western Science, 600 B.C. to A.D. 1450 (1992), Ronald Numbers' Galileo Goes to Jail, and Other Myths about Science and Religion (2009), Edward Grant's The Foundations of Modern Science in the Middle Ages (1996) and God and Reason in the Middle Ages (2001), and James Hannam's God's Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science (2009).

                          In fact here is what an atheist reviewer of the last work had to say about the entire "Dark Ages" myth:

                          Source: The Dark Age Myth: An Atheist Reviews “God’s Philosophers”


                          The Christian Dark Age and Other Hysterical Myths

                          One of the occupational hazards of being an atheist and secular humanist who hangs around on discussion boards is to encounter a staggering level of historical illiteracy. I like to console myself that many of the people on such boards have come to their atheism via the study of science and so, even if they are quite learned in things like geology and biology, usually have a grasp of history stunted at about high school level. I generally do this because the alternative is to admit that the average person's grasp of history and how history is studied is so utterly feeble as to be totally depressing.

                          So, alongside the regular airings of the hoary old myth that the Bible was collated at the Council of Nicea, the tedious internet-based "Jesus never existed!" nonsense, or otherwise intelligent people spouting pseudo historical claims that would make even Dan Brown snort in derision, the myth that the Catholic Church caused the Dark Ages and the Medieval Period was a scientific wasteland is regularly wheeled, creaking, into the sunlight for another trundle around the arena.

                          The myth goes that the Greeks and Romans were wise and rational types who loved science and were on the brink of doing all kinds of marvelous things (inventing full-scale steam engines is one example that is usually, rather fancifully, invoked) until Christianity came along. Christianity then banned all learning and rational thought and ushered in the Dark Ages. Then an iron-fisted theocracy, backed by a Gestapo-style Inquisition, prevented any science or questioning inquiry from happening until Leonardo da Vinci invented intelligence and the wondrous Renaissance saved us all from Medieval darkness.

                          The online manifestations of this curiously quaint but seemingly indefatigable idea range from the touchingly clumsy to the utterly shocking, but it remains one of those things that "everybody knows" and permeates modern culture. A recent episode of Family Guy had Stewie and Brian enter a futuristic alternative world where, it was explained, things were so advanced because Christianity didn't destroy learning, usher in the Dark Ages and stifle science. The writers didn't see the need to explain what Stewie meant - they assumed everyone understood.

                          About once every 3-4 months on forums like RichardDawkins.net we get some discussion where someone invokes the old "Conflict Thesis". That evolves into the usual ritual kicking of the Middle Ages as a benighted intellectual wasteland where humanity was shackled to superstition and oppressed by cackling minions of the Evil Old Catholic Church. The hoary standards are brought out on cue. Giordiano Bruno is presented as a wise and noble martyr for science instead of the irritating mystical New Age kook he actually was. Hypatia is presented as another such martyr and the mythical Christian destruction of the Great Library of Alexandria is spoken of in hushed tones, despite both these ideas being totally untrue. The Galileo Affair is ushered in as evidence of a brave scientist standing up to the unscientific obscurantism of the Church, despite that case being as much about science as it was about Scripture.

                          And, almost without fail, someone digs up a graphic (see below), which I have come to dub "The Most Wrong Thing On the Internet Ever", and to flourish it triumphantly as though it is proof of something other than the fact that most people are utterly ignorant of history and unable to see that something called "Scientific Advancement" can't be measured, let alone plotted on a graph.

                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]39539[/ATTACH]

                          It's not hard to kick this nonsense to pieces, especially since the people presenting it know next to nothing about history and have simply picked up these strange ideas from websites and popular books. The assertions collapse as soon as you hit them with hard evidence. I love to totally stump these propagators by asking them to present me with the name of one - just one - scientist burned, persecuted, or oppressed for their science in the Middle Ages. They always fail to come up with any. They usually try to crowbar Galileo back into the Middle Ages, which is amusing considering he was a contemporary of Descartes. When asked why they have failed to produce any such scientists given the Church was apparently so busily oppressing them, they often resort to claiming that the Evil Old Church did such a good job of oppression that everyone was too scared to practice science. By the time I produce a laundry list of Medieval scientists - like Albertus Magnus, Robert Grosseteste, Roger Bacon, John Peckham, Duns Scotus, Thomas Bradwardine, Walter Burley, William Heytesbury, Richard Swineshead, John Dumbleton, Richard of Wallingford, Nicholas Oresme, Jean Buridan and Nicholas of Cusa - and ask why these men were happily pursuing science in the Middle Ages without molestation from the Church, my opponents usually scratch their heads in puzzlement at what just went wrong.


                          Source

                          [*Emphases in original*]

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          O'Neill says a great deal more concerning the topic which can be seen by following the link provided. And keep in mind, this is an atheist source and not from a Christian apologist.










                          1. First came the Germanic tribes like the various Goths, Vandals, Angles, Saxons, Lombards, Suebi, Frisii, Jutes and Franks, followed by groups like the Huns, Avars, Slavs, Bulgars and Alans and finally the Vikings, Normans, Hungarians and Moors.
                          I have just found this post. You might be interested in the 2010 article by Charles Freeman in New Humanist where he offers a critique of Hannam's opus.

                          https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/...-society-prize
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            I have just found this post. You might be interested in the 2010 article by Charles Freeman in New Humanist where he offers a critique of Hannam's opus.

                            https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/...-society-prize
                            Excellent article, and yes the Christian leadership in Medieval Europe in the advancement of science and the enlightenment is badly over rated.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              It depends on one's assumptions.
                              No. It depends on geological evidence.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Excellent article, and yes the Christian leadership in Medieval Europe in the advancement of science and the enlightenment is badly over rated.
                                Yes and Hannam was somewhat dishonest in his remarks about Freeman in the opening chapter of his book. However, we all know about about the zeal of converts!

                                I am reading the Iraqi/English nuclear physicist, Jim al-Khalili's Pathfinders: The Golden Age of Arabic Science at the moment. An important aspect of Islamic culture that many here do not wish to address or [for some] even recognise!
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                14 responses
                                42 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                129 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                78 responses
                                411 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X