This Old Pope

[John Reece]

I thought this was worth noting:

• Richard John Neuhaus
  
  This old Pope who is, as we are regularly told, out of touch with the real world continues to be the key to, among many other things, the pro–democracy revolution of our time. Adrian Karatnycky of Freedom House notes that dictatorships have been almost completely eliminated in countries with a Catholic majority. "When he became Pope in 1978, twenty–two of forty–two countries with a Catholic majority were tyrannies. All but two of these have now collapsed. These now–democratic countries include Argentina, Chile, the Czech Republic, Guatemala, Hungary, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Poland, the Philippines, and Lithuania. Mexico is also nearing the completion of its transformation to democracy, as is Croatia. Only two Catholic countries remain dictatorships: Equatorial Guinea and Cuba."
  
  http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues...blic.html#while

The liberation of Poland, as a result of the faithfulness of Catholics during times of brutal persecution, is one of the marvels of modern history.

Karol Wojtyla, who was a bright light in that dark country prior to his becoming John Paul II, was, more than any other person, used by God to bring to pass the liberation of Poland from decades of political captivity.

There is a lot of Pope-bashing on TWeb. Wouldn't it be charitable to give some credit where credit is due?

[Jimmy Higgins]

The liberation of Poland, as a result of the faithfulness of Catholics during times of brutal persecution, is one of the marvels of modern history.

Karol Wojtyla, who was a bright light in that dark country prior to his becoming John Paul II, was, more than any other person, used by God to bring to pass the liberation of Poland from decades of political captivity.

There is a lot of Pope-bashing on TWeb. Wouldn't it be charitable to give some credit where credit is due?

I think he was the best Pope in a while and probably for a while. A person who acted instead of talked. And he thinks evolution is true, so that makes the perfecta.

[bar Jonah]

The Pope is the hero who is bringing democracy to all these countries?

That reminds me of Al Franken claiming that Clinton saved the pope's life and stopped a dozen airliners from blowing up simultaneously.



You're commiting an extreme fallacy of association. Catholicism is prominent in these countries that became democratic, therefore the Pope is responsible? What if the logical trend from such dictatorships is eventually (sooner or later) democracy or destruction? In which case it woudn't make any difference if Catholicism were prominent there, or not. (Or Baptists or even JWs or Mormons or Islam!)

[Da Lone-Warrior]

RI, you're committing the fallacy of ignorance.

Karl did stuff that helped advance the cause of Polish freedom before he became the Pope.

I have a lot of respect for the pope. I think it is a good idea to have a non-Italian as pope, because Christianity is pretty much dead in Italy, anyways.

RCCatholicism tends to thrive better where it isn't predominate or is under persecution, as was the case for Poland.

I do have problems with his mysticism, since that seems to tend to shield many of his fallible policy decisions from critique.

I was in disagreement with his assessment of GWII, which I never supported for the WMDs in the first place but rather because of who SHussein was and the need for political changes to take place in the Middle East.

I also think the policy towards AIDS in Africa is wrong and that they could have been more open to constructive dialogues with Liberation Theologians in Latin America, whose hearts have often been in the right place, even though their understanding of political-economic situation or how things might be concretely improved has been rather weak.

I also would prefer a Pope that could encourage the incorporation of more democracy within the RCChurch, such as the Voice of the Faithful.

But I'm not a Catholic, just a sympathetic observer and estranged brethren.
dlw

[John Reece]

RI, you're committing the fallacy of ignorance.

I am not happy to affirm such a charge (being the irenic fellow that I am), but I cannot but agree with you, LW.

I followed the history of Poland closely from WWII (which I'm old enough to remember) to the present, with special interest in the role of the Catholic Church and its heroic leaders, including Karol W. aka John Paul II. You could not know that history and be dismissive of the effects of his leadership (that began in Poland and has continued throughout his tenure as Pope) in the liberation of Poland from Communism, as well as the liberation of many other countries, with communist dictators falling like dominos in the wake of the liberation of Poland.

[Amazing Rando]

I thought this was worth noting:
This Old Pope

[sing]
This old Pope,
He's no dope!
He sure does know how to cope,
With a knick-knack paddy-whack
See his funny hat?
This old Pope knows where it's at!
[/sing]

[John Reece]

[sing]
This old Pope,
He's no dope!
He sure does know how to cope,
With a knick-knack paddy-whack
See his funny hat?
This old Pope knows where it's at!
[/sing]

That's good, Rando .

[AtheistArchon]

[sing]
This old Pope,
He's no dope!
He sure does know how to cope,
With a knick-knack paddy-whack
See his funny hat?
This old Pope knows where it's at!
[/sing]

- Whoa!! That was awesome!!

[C. D. Ward]

You know, when I saw the title of this thread I couldn't help thinking about Bob Vila re-modeling St. Peters...

Bob: today we're going to learn about frescoes...

[spl_cadet]

You know, when I saw the title of this thread I couldn't help thinking about Bob Vila re-modeling St. Peters...

Bob: today we're going to learn about frescoes...

[CatholicSage]

When something this monumental happens in relation to the Catholic Church, RI, the Pope generally is responsible to greater or lesser degrees. I commend the Pope and the Catholic Church in general for standing up for human rights in Eastern Europe and Latin America.

[Paulbarbee]

I agree w/ LutheranSage. I like the human rights stance of the Pope. He obviously didn't directly make any of those countries democratic but I don't find it a stretch to believe that he influenced the priests in those countries and they in turn pressured the political leaders and the general populace to become more democratic.

[bar Jonah]

I agree w/ LutheranSage. I like the human rights stance of the Pope. He obviously didn't directly make any of those countries democratic but I don't find it a stretch to believe that he influenced the priests in those countries and they in turn pressured the political leaders and the general populace to become more democratic.

I thought he said he did those things while he wasn't the Pope... :rihrm:

[Queen]

the pope....Good???

Well...he has the weirdest idea's about humanity. Half the world is starving while he was cruising the world (not to mention that ridiculous palace he is living in). He tells people that condoms are not safe and that they can not use condoms and he discriminates gay people all the time in most horrible way.......He is not my kind of guy.

To me he is violator of human rights!

Queen

[John Reece]

I thought he said he did those things while he wasn't the Pope... :rihrm:

Do all the "he"s in the quote above refer to the same person?

Just in case one of the "he"s relates to what I have posted, I repeat the following:

Originally Posted by Love-Warrior:

RI, you're committing the fallacy of ignorance.

posted by John Reece:

I am not happy to affirm such a charge (being the irenic fellow that I am), but I cannot but agree with you, LW.

I followed the history of Poland closely from WWII (which I'm old enough to remember) to the present, with special interest in the role of the Catholic Church and its heroic leaders, including Karol W. aka John Paul II. You could not know that history and be dismissive of the effects of his leadership (that began in Poland and has continued throughout his tenure as Pope) in the liberation of Poland from Communism, as well as the liberation of many other countries, with communist dictators falling like dominos in the wake of the liberation of Poland.