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Thread: God allows it?

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    God allows it?

    "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
    If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

    Not "has the Lord not allowed it?" Oftentimes you can hear people say that God allows trouble and calamity, but Scripture says otherwise. Though God is not the author of evil, still what happens is under his control, and by his plan.

    “But I gave you also cleanness of teeth in all your cities
    And lack of bread in all your places,
    Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord.
    “Furthermore, I withheld the rain from you
    While there were still three months until harvest.
    Then I would send rain on one city
    And on another city I would not send rain;
    One part would be rained on,
    While the part not rained on would dry up.
    “So two or three cities would stagger to another city to drink water,
    But would not be satisfied;
    Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord.
    “I smote you with scorching wind and mildew;
    And the caterpillar was devouring
    Your many gardens and vineyards, fig trees and olive trees;
    Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord. (Amos 4:6–9)

    So God does not simply allow trouble or calamity, I understand why people will say this, but this detracts from the sovereignty of God. And his plan is good, and for a good purpose.

    “I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah,
    And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze;
    Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord.
    “Therefore thus I will do to you, O Israel;
    Because I will do this to you,
    Prepare to meet your God, O Israel!”
    For behold, He who forms mountains and creates the wind
    And declares to man what are His thoughts,
    He who makes dawn into darkness
    And treads on the high places of the earth,
    The Lord God of hosts is His name. (Amos 4:11–13)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    You just have to read Revelation to know that.

  4. Amen lee_merrill, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
    If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

    Not "has the Lord not allowed it?" Oftentimes you can hear people say that God allows trouble and calamity, but Scripture says otherwise. Though God is not the author of evil, still what happens is under his control, and by his plan.

    “But I gave you also cleanness of teeth in all your cities
    And lack of bread in all your places,
    Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord.
    “Furthermore, I withheld the rain from you
    While there were still three months until harvest.
    Then I would send rain on one city
    And on another city I would not send rain;
    One part would be rained on,
    While the part not rained on would dry up.
    “So two or three cities would stagger to another city to drink water,
    But would not be satisfied;
    Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord.
    “I smote you with scorching wind and mildew;
    And the caterpillar was devouring
    Your many gardens and vineyards, fig trees and olive trees;
    Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord. (Amos 4:6–9)

    So God does not simply allow trouble or calamity, I understand why people will say this, but this detracts from the sovereignty of God. And his plan is good, and for a good purpose.

    “I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah,
    And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze;
    Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord.
    “Therefore thus I will do to you, O Israel;
    Because I will do this to you,
    Prepare to meet your God, O Israel!”
    For behold, He who forms mountains and creates the wind
    And declares to man what are His thoughts,
    He who makes dawn into darkness
    And treads on the high places of the earth,
    The Lord God of hosts is His name. (Amos 4:11–13)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Lee,

    You are vastly overstating your case. God is saying through His prophet that, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, He has directed the calamities in response to His peoples' unfaithfulness. It's a terrible proof-text for 'proving' that God directs all calamities, everywhere.
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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    God is saying through His prophet that, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, He has directed the calamities in response to His peoples' unfaithfulness.
    "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
    If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

    The first statement is a general question, and so in context, the second statement would be general too.

    It's a terrible proof-text for 'proving' that God directs all calamities, everywhere.
    How about this verse?

    "I am the Lord, and there is no other,
    The One forming light and creating darkness,
    Causing well-being and creating calamity;
    I am the Lord who does all these." (Isaiah 45:6–7)

    Two general statements, to make the point clear.

    And I think people say God allows calamity as in he doesn't ever create calamity, so I think I can take your point of view here and still disprove the statement that God does not do any such thing.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
    If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

    The first statement is a general question, and so in context, the second statement would be general too.
    Edited by a Moderator

    Moderated By: Bill the Cat


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    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 12-13-2018 at 12:43 PM.
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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    So you think your god not only allows, but causes every calamity. Every earthquake that levels tower blocks, every occupied building that catches fire, every train derailment, every terrorist bomb, every bridge collapse, every flash flood, every sacking and massacre, every plague and epidemic, every tsunami, every nuclear meltdown, every crashed plane, every magazine explosion, every avalanche, mudslide and pyroclastic lava flow, every mass shooting, every dam breach, every drought and famine, every foundered ship, all planned and put into motion by your god.

    And you worship him.
    Edited by a Moderator

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    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 12-13-2018 at 12:43 PM.
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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
    If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

    The first statement is a general question, and so in context, the second statement would be general too.
    Lee, it's a general question in a specific context. I told you the context, but you ignored it.
    How about this verse?

    "I am the Lord, and there is no other,
    The One forming light and creating darkness,
    Causing well-being and creating calamity;
    I am the Lord who does all these." (Isaiah 45:6–7)

    Two general statements, to make the point clear.
    This example fails for the same reason the first one did; namely, the calamity in question is visited in judgment on a disobedient people, in accordance with Deuteronomy.
    And I think people say God allows calamity as in he doesn't ever create calamity, so I think I can take your point of view here and still disprove the statement that God does not do any such thing.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    I think you know better than to think that, Lee. Do you really need to immolate a strawman in order to support your point? I'd hope you have something better.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Lee, it's a general question in a specific context. I told you the context, but you ignored it.
    Yes, there are specifics in the context, but that doesn't make a general statement specific.

    Source: New American Commentary, Amos

    Agreement with the general proposition that disaster in a city should be attributed to the Lord would lend support to the prophet’s contention that Israel’s oppression by surrounding nations was the work of the Lord. The emphasis of the sentence structure is that the Lord and no other “caused” (ʿāśâ, “worked” or “performed”) the disaster. As Gitay expresses it, “Amos’s main concern is the recognition that God reveals himself not only in matters of success but also in terms of sins and punishment” and “to convince his audience that an unbroken relationship exists between their sins and a divinely inspired catastrophe.” The implication of this line of argument is that God, the Sovereign Lord, controls everything that happens.

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    The alternative is worse, that God is not in control in calamities.

    This example fails for the same reason the first one did; namely, the calamity in question is visited in judgment on a disobedient people, in accordance with Deuteronomy.
    So I wonder how a general statement could be made, in Scripture!

    I think you know better than to think that, Lee. Do you really need to immolate a strawman in order to support your point? I'd hope you have something better.
    But this is not a strawman, many people (see above) do object to the idea that God is in complete control, even in every calamity.

    And if God is in control of some calamities, how is it a great step to suppose that God is in control of all of them?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  12. #10
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    Edited by a Moderator
    Yes, because of the belief that God is good, and that he has a good purpose even in the worst calamities, as in the cross.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 12-13-2018 at 12:43 PM.
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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