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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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God allows it?
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God allows it?
"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)Tags: None
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Lee,
You are vastly overstating your case. God is saying through His prophet that, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, He has directed the calamities in response to His peoples' unfaithfulness. It's a terrible proof-text for 'proving' that God directs all calamities, everywhere.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostGod is saying through His prophet that, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, He has directed the calamities in response to His peoples' unfaithfulness.
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)
The first statement is a general question, and so in context, the second statement would be general too.
It's a terrible proof-text for 'proving' that God directs all calamities, everywhere."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post"If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)
The first statement is a general question, and so in context, the second statement would be general too.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostSo you think your god not only allows, but causes every calamity. Every earthquake that levels tower blocks, every occupied building that catches fire, every train derailment, every terrorist bomb, every bridge collapse, every flash flood, every sacking and massacre, every plague and epidemic, every tsunami, every nuclear meltdown, every crashed plane, every magazine explosion, every avalanche, mudslide and pyroclastic lava flow, every mass shooting, every dam breach, every drought and famine, every foundered ship, all planned and put into motion by your god.
And you worship him.
Last edited by Bill the Cat; 12-13-2018, 02:43 PM.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post"If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)
The first statement is a general question, and so in context, the second statement would be general too.
This example fails for the same reason the first one did; namely, the calamity in question is visited in judgment on a disobedient people, in accordance with Deuteronomy.
And I think people say God allows calamity as in he doesn't ever create calamity, so I think I can take your point of view here and still disprove the statement that God does not do any such thing.
Blessings,
LeeVeritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostLee, it's a general question in a specific context. I told you the context, but you ignored it.
The alternative is worse, that God is not in control in calamities.
This example fails for the same reason the first one did; namely, the calamity in question is visited in judgment on a disobedient people, in accordance with Deuteronomy.
I think you know better than to think that, Lee. Do you really need to immolate a strawman in order to support your point? I'd hope you have something better.
And if God is in control of some calamities, how is it a great step to suppose that God is in control of all of them?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Roy View Post• Edited by a Moderator •
Blessings,
LeeLast edited by Bill the Cat; 12-13-2018, 02:43 PM."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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God has a permissive will also. He can allow calamities to occur that are caused by other things or people. When someone murders others like in a mass shooting, I don't think you can say that God causes it, but he allows it to happen because he gives us free will and that includes the freedom to sin and harm others.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostGod has a permissive will also. He can allow calamities to occur that are caused by other things or people. When someone murders others like in a mass shooting, I don't think you can say that God causes it, but he allows it to happen because he gives us free will and that includes the freedom to sin and harm others.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostSo then a murder means we have second best? God has to compromise with evil? Surely not, "all things work together for good for those who love God" (Romans 8:28), and if sin can cause real harm, and give us second best, then all things do not work out for good for those who love God.
Blessings,
Lee
If that is the case, where does free will come into play? This is sounding like a hypercalvinism
The verse means God will take even bad things and turn them into something good for those who love him. Not that he causes all bad things.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostDo you think God caused the Terrorists to crash into the World Trade Center?
"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)
If that is the case, where does free will come into play?
The verse means God will take even bad things and turn them into something good for those who love him. Not that he causes all bad things.
For some listening, by the way, try "Weathering the Storms of Life" by Jill Briscoe.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostYes, "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)
"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)
I hold that only believers have free will. Note that the Bible never says that God must allow for sin because of free will!
So I ask again, then a murder means we have second best? God has to compromise with evil?
For some listening, by the way, try "Weathering the Storms of Life" by Jill Briscoe.
Blessings,
Lee
Imagine a raging river. You can stand in the middle and block a bit here and there but the river will move around your feeble attempts and keep flowing where it wants to. That river is God's will and your attempts to staunch the flow are your free will interference with his plans.
My view is more of a Molinist. So that God is in control of everything, but he creates a world where our free will actions are the ones he wants us to make. So while God did create the world where the terrorists did attack New York, it was their free will choice to do so and they are responsible for it.
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