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Thread: God allows it?

  1. #41
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Unless faith has a cause!

    "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." (Romans 10:17)

    "... he greatly helped those who had believed through grace..." (Acts 18:27)

    "A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." (Acts 16:14)

    I believe that believers can freely choose, but until we are given life by the Spirit, we are dead in transgressions and sins, and slaves to sin (John 8:34).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    To me, ever since being in a few of these debates fifteen or more years ago at CARM, the idea that "RPF" -- Regeneration Precedes Faith -- has in practical terms been *the* key difference between Calvinistic and Arminian-like soteriologies.

    I realize the Acts 16 citation does support that view. IMO, other passages such as John 1:12-14, John 3, 1 Pet. 1:23, and the verse you cited from Rom. 10 argue *against* RPF.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  2. #42
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentient 6 View Post
    Calvinism doesn't deny that sinners have a free will. Mankind freely rebel against God and freely love their sin more than God. That's what they choose of their own will. They freely reject the Gospel message when they hear it. That's what they desire to do. That is what is in their heart.

    Btw, sometimes I don't care for the tag " Calvinism " because it implies the theology is more recent than what it is. This debate is as old as Pelagian disagreeing with Augustine praying " God command what thou will, and grant what thou commands. "
    Do you equate Arminianism with Pelagianism?
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  3. #43
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    Maybe this passage can show us how to think about the passage from Isaiah 45.6-7. That passage is part of an extended polemic against the gods of Babylon - it is not an academic essay on theodicy...
    Yet general statements can be made in the process of a specific discussion, I believe this is one such general statement.

    "I am the LORD, and there is no other;
    apart from me there is no God.
    I will strengthen you,
    though you have not acknowledged me,
    so that from the rising of the sun
    to the place of its setting
    people may know there is none besides me.
    I am the LORD, and there is no other.
    I form the light and create darkness,
    I bring prosperity and create disaster;
    I, the LORD, do all these things." (Isa. 45:5–7)

    "I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God" is certainly a general statement here, and similarly with "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster..."

    And this would include all disasters, including the Holocaust:

    "Is it nothing to you, all you who pass by?
    Look around and see.
    Is any suffering like my suffering
    that was inflicted on me,
    that the LORD brought on me..." (Lam. 1:12)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  4. #44
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    I realize the Acts 16 citation does support that view. IMO, other passages such as John 1:12-14, John 3, 1 Pet. 1:23, and the verse you cited from Rom. 10 argue *against* RPF.
    "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." (John 1:12-13)

    "Not born of human decision" here, and so I take "those who believed in his name" to be believing that Jesus was the Messiah.

    "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.' " (Jn 8:31)

    Yet later Jesus would say to these people "You belong to your father, the devil..." (v. 44), so their belief in his name was not saving faith.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  5. #45
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentient 6 View Post
    Calvinism doesn't deny that sinners have a free will. Mankind freely rebel against God and freely love their sin more than God. That's what they choose of their own will. They freely reject the Gospel message when they hear it. That's what they desire to do. That is what is in their heart.
    If you can't make your case without playing word games....
    Btw, sometimes I don't care for the tag " Calvinism " because it implies the theology is more recent than what it is. This debate is as old as Pelagian disagreeing with Augustine praying " God command what thou will, and grant what thou commands. "
    That Pelagius believed wrongly does not absolve Augustine of error in over-correcting Pelagian error. I agree that Calvin was more or less taking Augustinian belief to its logical conclusion.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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  6. Amen Littlejoe amen'd this post.

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