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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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  • #16
    Lee,


    Your theology is so far off the mark, I hardly know where to start....

    The "God brought this calamity" (sickness, disease, tragic accident, or judgement) on us/them is a boat load of crap from the pit of hell. You might think that's harsh but I'm sorry, that's what it is.

    God DOES NOT bring calamity on us....he's NOT judging us for our sins and natural disasters are NOT "acts of God"... What you are ascribing to God makes him the author and originator of both good and evil. God cannot abide by evil so your theology needs a rethink.

    Do bad things happen to good people...even Godly people...oh sure! Absolutely, but "God did it" is not the answer. The answer is that we are a world at war with the Devil and Jesus Christ is our champion warrior. The Devil however, "...prowls around like a lion seeking whom he may devour."

    What you've done here is rip verses out of context and made a theology that does not line up with scripture, then doubled down by attributing the good and evil things that happen, to a (supposedly) pure and righteous God. The verses you keep quoting are (as OBP has already pointed out) spoken to a specific people at a specific time about a specific event. You keep trying to change it to a general statement separating it from it's original intent to it's original audience to make it say what you want it to say...but that's called eisegesis plain and simple.

    God proposed a covenant with Israel. The Israelites agreed to that and entered into that covenant with God at the Mount Sinai with Moses. That was the deal and God had to honor the deal. When people blew it, they got the curses. And they mostly blew it. In the Old Testament God worked under an entirely different covenant than we have now. (Hint: You know Old Testament vs New Testament) The deal then was, “If you follow the law you will be blessed. If you break it you will be cursed.” (Deuteronomy 28 has 14 verses of blessing followed by 54 verses of curses.) The verses you keep quoting were curses under the Old Law to the Israelites. Not to men everywhere for all time.

    We have to look at the OT through the lens of Christ. Because the Cross changed everything...including how God deals with His people. How do we know that? Look through the New Testament and find where Jesus put sickness on one single person. You won’t find a single instance. Not one. (Nope, the fig tree was not a person) Now let's look at the opposite side to the number of times Jesus healed someone. There are dozens of times that it says Jesus healed people. And it wasn’t always just a onesy, twosy type thing either. There are several instances where Jesus healed everyone in the crowd who was sick.

    The NT makes it clear that we’ve got a whole new deal now. Jesus has finished the Law so the Curses are no longer valid. The OT prophecies and the NT confirms that Jesus was Cursed so we could be blessed. Jesus lived in complete fulfillment of the law. He never sinned and never broke the law. And then he suffered the curses that everyone in the entire world deserved because they violated the law and sinned. But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing.

    Paul tells us: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” — Galatians 3:13

    God is no longer cursing us with disease and calamity. Everything mentioned in those 54 verses of curses found in Deuteronomy 28? As believers in Jesus we’re now exempt from them because Jesus took those curses for us.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      I don't understand your question about second best.
      As in it would have been better if evil had not happened.

      I think that we live in a fallen world and God allows evil to occur as a consequence of the fall and our own evil actions. But it all works according to his ultimate plan which is the redemption of his creation.
      So then God has to compromise with evil? That is, that God must put up with a certain amount of evil which detracts from God's best.

      My view is more of a Molinist. So that God is in control of everything, but he creates a world where our free will actions are the ones he wants us to make. So while God did create the world where the terrorists did attack New York, it was their free will choice to do so and they are responsible for it.
      But I note that you are not quoting Scripture to support this view! Please interact with these verses:

      "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

      "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
        The "God brought this calamity" (sickness, disease, tragic accident, or judgement) on us/them is a boat load of crap from the pit of hell.
        But (as Sparko remarked) have you read the book of Revelation?

        God DOES NOT bring calamity on us....he's NOT judging us for our sins and natural disasters are NOT "acts of God"...
        And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.” And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.” (Rev. 16:5–7)

        Do bad things happen to good people...even Godly people...oh sure! Absolutely, but "God did it" is not the answer.
        Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped.
        He said,
        “Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
        And naked I shall return there.
        The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away.
        Blessed be the name of the Lord.” (Job 1:20–21)

        The verses you keep quoting are (as OBP has already pointed out) spoken to a specific people at a specific time about a specific event. You keep trying to change it to a general statement separating it from it's original intent to it's original audience to make it say what you want it to say...
        But these are general statements, how then could God make a general statement in Scripture then, if not in this way?

        “I am the Lord, and there is no other;
        Besides Me there is no God.
        I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
        That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
        That there is no one besides Me.
        I am the Lord, and there is no other,
        The One forming light and creating darkness,
        Causing well-being and creating calamity;
        I am the Lord who does all these." (Isaiah 45:5–7)

        The verses you keep quoting were curses under the Old Law to the Israelites.
        What about the calamities that befell Job?

        Look through the New Testament and find where Jesus put sickness on one single person.
        “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.” (Lk 19:27)

        That's not just sickness, that's death!

        God is no longer cursing us with disease and calamity. Everything mentioned in those 54 verses of curses found in Deuteronomy 28? As believers in Jesus we’re now exempt from them because Jesus took those curses for us.
        Indeed, there is no curse for believers, but God can still judge sin in a believer's life:

        "For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
        For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number asleep.
        But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
        But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world." (1 Co 11:29–32)

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          As in it would have been better if evil had not happened.


          So then God has to compromise with evil? That is, that God must put up with a certain amount of evil which detracts from God's best.
          He doesn't HAVE to, Lee. He chooses to by extending us grace. If he wanted to, he could eliminate all evil with one word. Unfortunately that would include us, as we are the authors of most of the evil in the world. He instead uses forebearance to allow evil to continue for a time until all is accomplished and then he will make it all right. That is what we are looking forward to. In the meantime we are to help spread the gospel to as many as we can.

          But I note that you are not quoting Scripture to support this view! Please interact with these verses:

          "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

          "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)

          Blessings,
          Lee
          Read up on molinism. It is a view that seeks to reconcile calvinism with arminianism. It allows God to be completely sovereign, while still allowing us free will.

          Here is a good basic article: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...and-free-will/

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            So then God has to compromise with evil? That is, that God must put up with a certain amount of evil which detracts from God's best.
            He doesn't HAVE to, Lee. He chooses to by extending us grace.
            Well, if God has to compromise with evil, and we get second-best, then how is it that all things work together for good for those who love God? If sin can do real damage, that we (and God) have to compromise with.

            If he wanted to, he could eliminate all evil with one word. Unfortunately that would include us, as we are the authors of most of the evil in the world. He instead uses forebearance to allow evil to continue for a time until all is accomplished and then he will make it all right.
            So then sin doesn't win at all? I agree. But we can't have it both ways, where sin wins sometimes, and sin doesn't win at all.

            Read up on molinism. It is a view that seeks to reconcile calvinism with arminianism.
            I am familiar with the basics of molinism, but I am asking you to comment on Scripture based on your view, and give me the Molinist view here if you wish.

            "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

            "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Well, if God has to compromise with evil, and we get second-best, then how is it that all things work together for good for those who love God? If sin can do real damage, that we (and God) have to compromise with.
              because in the end we are saved and spend eternity with God. No matter what suffering we go through, it all works out for the good. It might not be in this life but the next. The answer is the same whether you go with my explanation for evil or your own.


              So then sin doesn't win at all? I agree. But we can't have it both ways, where sin wins sometimes, and sin doesn't win at all.
              Sin isn't a contestant against God. It our rebellion against God. And no, it doesn't win. See my answer above.

              I am familiar with the basics of molinism, but I am asking you to comment on Scripture based on your view, and give me the Molinist view here if you wish.

              "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

              "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)

              Blessings,
              Lee
              I already did. He is sovereign and he created the world where the evil was allowed to happen by his permissive will.

              Look Lee, the logical conclusion to your view is that God is evil. Because only someone evil would do evil things, right? And if God is in control and does evil then how can he be good?

              So God commanded the terrorists to commit 911 and murder 4,000 people, many of them his own people, good Christians, and start a war that killed many more? How is that not God doing evil?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                But (as Sparko remarked) have you read the book of Revelation?

                And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.” And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.” (Rev. 16:5–7)
                As an Orthodox Preterist, I see Revelation as mostly the final judgement on Israel and the Old Covenant which happened in A.D. 70 for rejecting Christ.

                Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped.
                He said,
                “Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
                And naked I shall return there.
                The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away.
                Blessed be the name of the Lord.” (Job 1:20–21)
                Job is in the Old Testament (Testament = Covenant) right?

                But these are general statements, how then could God make a general statement in Scripture then, if not in this way?

                “I am the Lord, and there is no other;
                Besides Me there is no God.
                I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
                That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
                That there is no one besides Me.
                I am the Lord, and there is no other,
                The One forming light and creating darkness,
                Causing well-being and creating calamity;
                I am the Lord who does all these." (Isaiah 45:5–7)
                Well you're begging the question. Explain why God MUST make general statements at all?


                What about the calamities that befell Job?
                Again, OT. Just because Satan was allowed in this case doesn't mean it's always the case. Also, there's a lot more going on in Job than most people realize.
                You see, the point of the book of Job is to teach us that the mystery of evil is a mystery of a war-torn and unfathomably complex creation, not the mystery of God’s all-controlling will...and though God does not direct it, plan it, or enact it, He allows it because of Human and Angelic/Demonic (Demons are fallen angels of course) free will.

                However, as you demonstrate with this thread, seeing how so many Christians are still inclined to look for a divine reason behind catastrophes and personal tragedies, I think it’s a point many Christians have yet to learn.

                Most people (including many Christians) miss the point of the Book of Job. They miss the Spiritual Warfare going on behind the scenes and relegate it simply as a "literary device" since the Genre of Job is epic poetry.

                The warfare going on between Satan and God ends with poor Job caught in the middle like many people in war-torn nations between two mighty warring factions. Job becomes a pawn in Satan's hand to challenge the way God is ruling the universe. Satan was assailing God’s integrity and wisdom in overseeing the creation. He was, in effect, accusing him of being a Machiavellian ruler. And so, this narrative is the result. It was an assault on God's character and providence that could only be answered by it being put to a test. Had God simply forced satan into silence, without proving him wrong, it would been seen as confirmation of satan's accusations. That there was no integrity or wisdom in how God was running the universe...only his use of divine power that he used to manipulate us into obeying him. Ultimately, it comes down to Satan's charge that people only served God as a bargain, not out of genuine love....and the only way to prove it was a test. Therefore, the most righteous man on the earth was thus chosen to be tested. If Job failed, the story suggests, then satan will have proven his charge. If he succeeded, however, then God’s wisdom and integrity in running the cosmos will have been vindicated. So, God lowered the protective fence around Job and satan is allowed to afflict him.

                One other thing people may not realize about the Book of Job is that since we are dealing with an epic poem, most Old Testament scholars agree that it is misguided to press this prologue for literal details about God’s general relationship to Satan. The literary point of the story is not to answer questions like, “Does Satan always have to get specific permission every time he does something?,” or “Is every affliction the result of a heavenly challenge to God’s authority?”

                “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.” (Lk 19:27)

                That's not just sickness, that's death!
                You do realize this is a parable right? But, again, it's a pronouncement of Jesus to the Jews that the final judgment of their Old Covenant is coming (Book of Revelation,read up on Orthodox Preterism) and those refusing to believe and move to New Covenant will be judged. Look at what comes very shortly after this parable:

                41 And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42 saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side 44 and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” (Luke 19:41 - 44) Obviously in reference to the coming judgment of the OT and destruction of the Temple.

                Indeed, there is no curse for believers, but God can still judge sin in a believer's life:

                "For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
                For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number asleep.
                But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
                But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world." (1 Co 11:29–32)


                Blessings,
                Lee
                I think there's a difference in not respecting the person of Jesus Christ when you are supposed to be a Christian than general sin. Again, specific warning to a specific group about a specific action.
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  He is sovereign and he created the world where the evil was allowed to happen by his permissive will.
                  But that doesn't suit these verses:

                  "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

                  "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)

                  This is more than just permissive will.

                  Look Lee, the logical conclusion to your view is that God is evil. Because only someone evil would do evil things, right? And if God is in control and does evil then how can he be good?
                  Because of a good outcome, "all things work together for good for those who love God" (Rom. 8:28).

                  So God commanded the terrorists to commit 911 and murder 4,000 people, many of them his own people, good Christians, and start a war that killed many more? How is that not God doing evil?
                  Because of a good result, as in the cross. The worst evil act in human history was brought about by God, and brought the greatest good result. Therefore we can trust him when he sends calamity, when evil things happen as part of his plan.

                  Would you say that God's plan does not involve evil? But "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..." (Rom. 5:20), God sent the law, unquestionably, so that sin would increase, this was in his plan, for good: "but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom. 5:20–21)

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                    As an Orthodox Preterist, I see Revelation as mostly the final judgement on Israel and the Old Covenant which happened in A.D. 70 for rejecting Christ.
                    But God does send calamity, correct?

                    Job is in the Old Testament (Testament = Covenant) right?
                    Yes, but "the Lord has taken away" is what Job said, without sinning (Job 1:21-22).

                    Well you're begging the question. Explain why God MUST make general statements at all?
                    To teach us his ways.

                    You see, the point of the book of Job is to teach us that the mystery of evil is a mystery of a war-torn and unfathomably complex creation, not the mystery of God’s all-controlling will...and though God does not direct it, plan it, or enact it, He allows it because of Human and Angelic/Demonic (Demons are fallen angels of course) free will.
                    Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die!” But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips. (Job 2:9–10)

                    So, God lowered the protective fence around Job and satan is allowed to afflict him.
                    The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.”

                    God did this, ultimately, though Satan was a tool in the process.

                    One other thing people may not realize about the Book of Job is that since we are dealing with an epic poem, most Old Testament scholars agree that it is misguided to press this prologue for literal details about God’s general relationship to Satan.
                    Do you think this is fiction?!

                    "We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord’s dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful." (Jas 5:11)

                    I think there's a difference in not respecting the person of Jesus Christ when you are supposed to be a Christian than general sin.
                    But I'm not sure what you are saying here.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
                      So then God has to compromise with evil? That is, that God must put up with a certain amount of evil which detracts from God's best.
                      He doesn't HAVE to, Lee. He chooses to by extending us grace.

                      Well, if God has to compromise with evil, and we get second-best, then how is it that all things work together for good for those who love God? If sin can do real damage, that we (and God) have to compromise with.
                      Lee, not sure if you realize this - BUT - you are simply not engaging with what others have written. Rather, you continue to blatantly ignore most of what other have actually written, then cherry pick what you want to fit your paradigm of both other's opinions and the Bible.

                      Until you are willing to engage, and learn and actually wrestle with the word of God (hint: if you aren't learning new things and your theology stays the same / you always focus on the same things -- you probably aren't actually being transformed through God's word -- but that's just my opinion based on experience)

                      I am saying this to hopefully have you consider to start to actually engage with others (and be willing to shift your perspective on a few things if the evidence so leads you).

                      What does NOT suffice as evidence is:

                      1. Straw man arguments
                      2. Re-Stating the Same Argument after it has been dealt with (then asking people to deal with it)
                      3. Not reading and engaging with what other's have actually written


                      Granted, IMHO, Calvinism stakes it claim by taking things out of context,, building straw man arguments, creating false dichotomies and a whole host of other fallacies.....so I guess it shouldn't surprise me when people who uphold the theology engage that way in pretty much everything else....

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
                        1. Straw man arguments
                        2. Re-Stating the Same Argument after it has been dealt with (then asking people to deal with it)
                        3. Not reading and engaging with what other's have actually written
                        So let's start with the first one, where have I misrepresented what others have said?

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          But that doesn't suit these verses:

                          "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

                          "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)

                          This is more than just permissive will.


                          Because of a good outcome, "all things work together for good for those who love God" (Rom. 8:28).


                          Because of a good result, as in the cross. The worst evil act in human history was brought about by God, and brought the greatest good result. Therefore we can trust him when he sends calamity, when evil things happen as part of his plan.

                          Would you say that God's plan does not involve evil? But "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..." (Rom. 5:20), God sent the law, unquestionably, so that sin would increase, this was in his plan, for good: "but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom. 5:20–21)

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          So you believe that the ends justify the means then? That God actively does evil to get a good result? If that is the case, how can he judge anyone for sinning, since they had to do it because God commanded it? If he made the terrorists crash into the world trade centers to kill 4000 people, it wasn't their fault. God made them do it. Heck it means God made Satan rebel and the demons.

                          You have turned God into an evil maniac who thinks he will do good by doing evil.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            So you believe that the ends justify the means then? That God actively does evil to get a good result?
                            No, God does not take a compromising route to a good end. But God does include evil as part of his plan, as in the cross.

                            "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Acts 4:27–28)

                            If that is the case, how can he judge anyone for sinning, since they had to do it because God commanded it?
                            Because their intent is different, they intend evil.

                            Gen. 50:20 "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive."

                            "The text says, 'You meant evil against me.' Evil is a feminine singular noun. Then it says, 'God meant it for good.' The word 'it' is a feminine singular suffix that can only agree with the antecedent feminine singular noun, 'evil.' And the verb 'meant' is the same past tense in both cases. You meant evil against me in the past, as you were doing it. And God meant that very evil, not as evil, but as good in the past as you were doing it. And to make this perfectly clear, Psalm 105:17 says about Joseph's coming to Egypt, '[God] sent a man before them, Joseph, who was sold as a slave.' God sent him. God did not find him there owing to evil choices, and then try to make something good come of it. Therefore this text stands as a kind of paradigm for how to understand the evil will of man within the sovereign will of God." (John Piper)

                            And I ask again: Would you say that God's plan does not involve evil? But "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..." (Rom. 5:20), God sent the law, unquestionably, so that sin would increase, this was in his plan, for good: "but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom. 5:20–21)

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            Last edited by lee_merrill; 12-15-2018, 02:22 PM.
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              No, God does not take a compromising route to a good end. But God does include evil as part of his plan, as in the cross.

                              "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Acts 4:27–28)


                              Because their intent is different, they intend evil.

                              Gen. 50:20 "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive."

                              "The text says, 'You meant evil against me.' Evil is a feminine singular noun. Then it says, 'God meant it for good.' The word 'it' is a feminine singular suffix that can only agree with the antecedent feminine singular noun, 'evil.' And the verb 'meant' is the same past tense in both cases. You meant evil against me in the past, as you were doing it. And God meant that very evil, not as evil, but as good in the past as you were doing it. And to make this perfectly clear, Psalm 105:17 says about Joseph's coming to Egypt, '[God] sent a man before them, Joseph, who was sold as a slave.' God sent him. God did not find him there owing to evil choices, and then try to make something good come of it. Therefore this text stands as a kind of paradigm for how to understand the evil will of man within the sovereign will of God." (John Piper)

                              And I ask again: Would you say that God's plan does not involve evil? But "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..." (Rom. 5:20), God sent the law, unquestionably, so that sin would increase, this was in his plan, for good: "but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom. 5:20–21)

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              God cannot do evil Lee. Not even for a good reason. He can allow it to exist, but he can't do it. You are twisting scriptures out of context. God's plan includes evil in that he expected it and allowed it to happen. And he in his patience, mercy and grace doesn't wipe us all out right now, but allows us to exist until his plan is complete and as many as can be saved will be saved.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                God cannot do evil Lee.
                                Certainly not, he uses secondary causes.

                                God's plan includes evil in that he expected it and allowed it to happen.
                                And planned it, you are missing the obvious import of Scriptures such as John Piper addresses above. I wish you would respond directly to these points I am making, instead of just quoting them and raising other questions.

                                "The text says, 'You meant evil against me.' Evil is a feminine singular noun. Then it says, 'God meant it for good.' The word 'it' is a feminine singular suffix that can only agree with the antecedent feminine singular noun, 'evil.' And the verb 'meant' is the same past tense in both cases. You meant evil against me in the past, as you were doing it. And God meant that very evil, not as evil, but as good in the past as you were doing it. And to make this perfectly clear, Psalm 105:17 says about Joseph's coming to Egypt, '[God] sent a man before them, Joseph, who was sold as a slave.' God sent him. God did not find him there owing to evil choices, and then try to make something good come of it. Therefore this text stands as a kind of paradigm for how to understand the evil will of man within the sovereign will of God." (John Piper)

                                God does include evil as part of his plan, as in the cross.

                                "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Acts 4:27–28)

                                Where in the context does it dispute the point that God's purposes and plans even evil deeds?

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                Last edited by lee_merrill; 12-15-2018, 03:04 PM.
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

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