God allows it?

[Littlejoe]

[lee_merrill]

I don't understand your question about second best.

As in it would have been better if evil had not happened.

I think that we live in a fallen world and God allows evil to occur as a consequence of the fall and our own evil actions. But it all works according to his ultimate plan which is the redemption of his creation.

So then God has to compromise with evil? That is, that God must put up with a certain amount of evil which detracts from God's best.

My view is more of a Molinist. So that God is in control of everything, but he creates a world where our free will actions are the ones he wants us to make. So while God did create the world where the terrorists did attack New York, it was their free will choice to do so and they are responsible for it.

But I note that you are not quoting Scripture to support this view! Please interact with these verses:

"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

The "God brought this calamity" (sickness, disease, tragic accident, or judgement) on us/them is a boat load of crap from the pit of hell.

But (as Sparko remarked) have you read the book of Revelation?

God DOES NOT bring calamity on us....he's NOT judging us for our sins and natural disasters are NOT "acts of God"...

Do bad things happen to good people...even Godly people...oh sure! Absolutely, but "God did it" is not the answer.

and the Lord has taken away

The verses you keep quoting are (as OBP has already pointed out) spoken to a specific people at a specific time about a specific event. You keep trying to change it to a general statement separating it from it's original intent to it's original audience to make it say what you want it to say...

The verses you keep quoting were curses under the Old Law to the Israelites.

What about the calamities that befell Job?

Look through the New Testament and find where Jesus put sickness on one single person.

Indeed, there is no curse for believers, but God can still judge sin in a believer's life:

"For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number asleep.
But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord

[Sparko]

As in it would have been better if evil had not happened.


So then God has to compromise with evil? That is, that God must put up with a certain amount of evil which detracts from God's best.

He doesn't HAVE to, Lee. He chooses to by extending us grace. If he wanted to, he could eliminate all evil with one word. Unfortunately that would include us, as we are the authors of most of the evil in the world. He instead uses forebearance to allow evil to continue for a time until all is accomplished and then he will make it all right. That is what we are looking forward to. In the meantime we are to help spread the gospel to as many as we can.

But I note that you are not quoting Scripture to support this view! Please interact with these verses:

"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)

Blessings,
Lee

Read up on molinism. It is a view that seeks to reconcile calvinism with arminianism. It allows God to be completely sovereign, while still allowing us free will.

Here is a good basic article: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...and-free-will/

[lee_merrill]

So then God has to compromise with evil? That is, that God must put up with a certain amount of evil which detracts from God's best.

He doesn't HAVE to, Lee. He chooses to by extending us grace.

Well, if God has to compromise with evil, and we get second-best, then how is it that all things work together for good for those who love God? If sin can do real damage, that we (and God) have to compromise with.

If he wanted to, he could eliminate all evil with one word. Unfortunately that would include us, as we are the authors of most of the evil in the world. He instead uses forebearance to allow evil to continue for a time until all is accomplished and then he will make it all right.

So then sin doesn't win at all? I agree. But we can't have it both ways, where sin wins sometimes, and sin doesn't win at all.

Read up on molinism. It is a view that seeks to reconcile calvinism with arminianism.

I am familiar with the basics of molinism, but I am asking you to comment on Scripture based on your view, and give me the Molinist view here if you wish.

"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

Well, if God has to compromise with evil, and we get second-best, then how is it that all things work together for good for those who love God? If sin can do real damage, that we (and God) have to compromise with.

because in the end we are saved and spend eternity with God. No matter what suffering we go through, it all works out for the good. It might not be in this life but the next. The answer is the same whether you go with my explanation for evil or your own.

So then sin doesn't win at all? I agree. But we can't have it both ways, where sin wins sometimes, and sin doesn't win at all.

Sin isn't a contestant against God. It our rebellion against God. And no, it doesn't win. See my answer above.

I am familiar with the basics of molinism, but I am asking you to comment on Scripture based on your view, and give me the Molinist view here if you wish.

"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)

Blessings,
Lee

I already did. He is sovereign and he created the world where the evil was allowed to happen by his permissive will.

Look Lee, the logical conclusion to your view is that God is evil. Because only someone evil would do evil things, right? And if God is in control and does evil then how can he be good?

So God commanded the terrorists to commit 911 and murder 4,000 people, many of them his own people, good Christians, and start a war that killed many more? How is that not God doing evil?

[Littlejoe]

As an Orthodox Preterist, I see Revelation as mostly the final judgement on Israel and the Old Covenant which happened in A.D. 70 for rejecting Christ.

Job is in the Old Testament (Testament = Covenant) right?

Well you're begging the question. Explain why God MUST make general statements at all?

What about the calamities that befell Job?

I think there's a difference in not respecting the person of Jesus Christ when you are supposed to be a Christian than general sin. Again, specific warning to a specific group about a specific action.

[lee_merrill]

He is sovereign and he created the world where the evil was allowed to happen by his permissive will.

But that doesn't suit these verses:

"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)

This is more than just permissive will.

Look Lee, the logical conclusion to your view is that God is evil. Because only someone evil would do evil things, right? And if God is in control and does evil then how can he be good?

Because of a good outcome, "all things work together for good for those who love God" (Rom. 8:28).

So God commanded the terrorists to commit 911 and murder 4,000 people, many of them his own people, good Christians, and start a war that killed many more? How is that not God doing evil?

[lee_merrill]

As an Orthodox Preterist, I see Revelation as mostly the final judgement on Israel and the Old Covenant which happened in A.D. 70 for rejecting Christ.

But God does send calamity, correct?

Job is in the Old Testament (Testament = Covenant) right?

Yes, but "the Lord has taken away" is what Job said, without sinning (Job 1:21-22).

Well you're begging the question. Explain why God MUST make general statements at all?

To teach us his ways.

Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?Job did not sin with his lips

So, God lowered the protective fence around Job and satan is allowed to afflict him.

you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause

I think there's a difference in not respecting the person of Jesus Christ when you are supposed to be a Christian than general sin.

But I'm not sure what you are saying here.

Blessings,
Lee

[phat8594]

Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
So then God has to compromise with evil? That is, that God must put up with a certain amount of evil which detracts from God's best.
He doesn't HAVE to, Lee. He chooses to by extending us grace.

Well, if God has to compromise with evil, and we get second-best, then how is it that all things work together for good for those who love God? If sin can do real damage, that we (and God) have to compromise with.

Lee, not sure if you realize this - BUT - you are simply not engaging with what others have written. Rather, you continue to blatantly ignore most of what other have actually written, then cherry pick what you want to fit your paradigm of both other's opinions and the Bible.

Until you are willing to engage, and learn and actually wrestle with the word of God (hint: if you aren't learning new things and your theology stays the same / you always focus on the same things -- you probably aren't actually being transformed through God's word -- but that's just my opinion based on experience)

I am saying this to hopefully have you consider to start to actually engage with others (and be willing to shift your perspective on a few things if the evidence so leads you).

What does NOT suffice as evidence is:

1. Straw man arguments
2. Re-Stating the Same Argument after it has been dealt with (then asking people to deal with it)
3. Not reading and engaging with what other's have actually written


Granted, IMHO, Calvinism stakes it claim by taking things out of context,, building straw man arguments, creating false dichotomies and a whole host of other fallacies.....so I guess it shouldn't surprise me when people who uphold the theology engage that way in pretty much everything else....

[lee_merrill]

1. Straw man arguments
2. Re-Stating the Same Argument after it has been dealt with (then asking people to deal with it)
3. Not reading and engaging with what other's have actually written

So let's start with the first one, where have I misrepresented what others have said?

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

But that doesn't suit these verses:

"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)

"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it

So you believe that the ends justify the means then? That God actively does evil to get a good result? If that is the case, how can he judge anyone for sinning, since they had to do it because God commanded it? If he made the terrorists crash into the world trade centers to kill 4000 people, it wasn't their fault. God made them do it. Heck it means God made Satan rebel and the demons.

You have turned God into an evil maniac who thinks he will do good by doing evil.

[lee_merrill]

So you believe that the ends justify the means then? That God actively does evil to get a good result?

No, God does not take a compromising route to a good end. But God does include evil as part of his plan, as in the cross.

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur

If that is the case, how can he judge anyone for sinning, since they had to do it because God commanded it?

[Sparko]

No, God does not take a compromising route to a good end. But God does include evil as part of his plan, as in the cross.

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur

God cannot do evil Lee. Not even for a good reason. He can allow it to exist, but he can't do it. You are twisting scriptures out of context. God's plan includes evil in that he expected it and allowed it to happen. And he in his patience, mercy and grace doesn't wipe us all out right now, but allows us to exist until his plan is complete and as many as can be saved will be saved.

[lee_merrill]

God cannot do evil Lee.

Certainly not, he uses secondary causes.

God's plan includes evil in that he expected it and allowed it to happen.

And planned it, you are missing the obvious import of Scriptures such as John Piper addresses above. I wish you would respond directly to these points I am making, instead of just quoting them and raising other questions.

"The text says, 'You meant evil against me.' Evil is a feminine singular noun. Then it says, 'God meant it for good.' The word 'it' is a feminine singular suffix that can only agree with the antecedent feminine singular noun, 'evil.' And the verb 'meant' is the same past tense in both cases. You meant evil against me in the past, as you were doing it. And God meant that very evil, not as evil, but as good in the past as you were doing it. And to make this perfectly clear, Psalm 105:17 says about Joseph's coming to Egypt, '[God] sent a man before them, Joseph, who was sold as a slave.' God sent him. God did not find him there owing to evil choices, and then try to make something good come of it. Therefore this text stands as a kind of paradigm for how to understand the evil will of man within the sovereign will of God." (John Piper)

God does include evil as part of his plan, as in the cross.

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur