God allows it?

[lee_merrill]

"When a person settles it Biblically, intellectually and emotionally, that God has ultimate control of all things, including evil, and that this is gracious and precious beyond words, then a marvelous stability and depth come into that person's life" (John Piper)

[Sparko]

"When a person settles it Biblically, intellectually and emotionally, that God has ultimate control of all things, including evil, and that this is gracious and precious beyond words, then a marvelous stability and depth come into that person's life" (John Piper)

I am done here Lee. I am guessing you are a hypercalvinist. I don't have any desire to keep arguing this with you.

[lee_merrill]

I am done here Lee. I am guessing you are a hypercalvinist. I don't have any desire to keep arguing this with you.

Blessing to you then and best wishes,

Lee

[Sentient 6]

I am done here Lee. I am guessing you are a hypercalvinist. I don't have any desire to keep arguing this with you.

From what I have read, Lees' ( or Pipers for that matter ) view is not representing a hyper Calvinist view......but simply.... classic Calvinism.

[One Bad Pig]

From what I have read, Lees' ( or Pipers for that matter ) view is not representing a hyper Calvinist view......but simply.... classic Calvinism.

The more I read about Calvinism (both pro and con), the more pernicious it seems. The gospel message more or less assumes free will. "What must we do to be saved?" "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Without a choice, that is utterly meaningless.

[lee_merrill]

The more I read about Calvinism (both pro and con), the more pernicious it seems. The gospel message more or less assumes free will. "What must we do to be saved?" "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Without a choice, that is utterly meaningless.

Unless faith has a cause!

"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." (Romans 10:17)

"... he greatly helped those who had believed through grace..." (Acts 18:27)

"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." (Acts 16:14)

I believe that believers can freely choose, but until we are given life by the Spirit, we are dead in transgressions and sins, and slaves to sin (John 8:34).

Blessings,
Lee

[Sentient 6]

The more I read about Calvinism (both pro and con), the more pernicious it seems. The gospel message more or less assumes free will. "What must we do to be saved?" "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Without a choice, that is utterly meaningless.

Calvinism doesn't deny that sinners have a free will. Mankind freely rebel against God and freely love their sin more than God. That's what they choose of their own will. They freely reject the Gospel message when they hear it. That's what they desire to do. That is what is in their heart.

Btw, sometimes I don't care for the tag " Calvinism " because it implies the theology is more recent than what it is. This debate is as old as Pelagian disagreeing with Augustine praying " God command what thou will, and grant what thou commands. "

[Rushing Jaws]

[lee_merrill]

Well said...

Blessings,
Lee

[Rushing Jaws]

God has a permissive will also. He can allow calamities to occur that are caused by other things or people. When someone murders others like in a mass shooting, I don't think you can say that God causes it, but he allows it to happen because he gives us free will and that includes the freedom to sin and harm others.

15See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, as well as death and disaster. 16https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-16.htm

[NorrinRadd]

Unless faith has a cause!

"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." (Romans 10:17)

"... he greatly helped those who had believed through grace..." (Acts 18:27)

"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." (Acts 16:14)

I believe that believers can freely choose, but until we are given life by the Spirit, we are dead in transgressions and sins, and slaves to sin (John 8:34).

Blessings,
Lee

To me, ever since being in a few of these debates fifteen or more years ago at CARM, the idea that "RPF" -- Regeneration Precedes Faith -- has in practical terms been *the* key difference between Calvinistic and Arminian-like soteriologies.

I realize the Acts 16 citation does support that view. IMO, other passages such as John 1:12-14, John 3, 1 Pet. 1:23, and the verse you cited from Rom. 10 argue *against* RPF.

[NorrinRadd]

Calvinism doesn't deny that sinners have a free will. Mankind freely rebel against God and freely love their sin more than God. That's what they choose of their own will. They freely reject the Gospel message when they hear it. That's what they desire to do. That is what is in their heart.

Btw, sometimes I don't care for the tag " Calvinism " because it implies the theology is more recent than what it is. This debate is as old as Pelagian disagreeing with Augustine praying " God command what thou will, and grant what thou commands. "

Do you equate Arminianism with Pelagianism?

[lee_merrill]

Maybe this passage can show us how to think about the passage from Isaiah 45.6-7. That passage is part of an extended polemic against the gods of Babylon - it is not an academic essay on theodicy...

Yet general statements can be made in the process of a specific discussion, I believe this is one such general statement.

"I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
people may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORDORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God" is certainly a general statement here, and similarly with "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster..."

And this would include all disasters, including the Holocaust:

"Is it nothing to you, all you who pass by?
Look around and see.
Is any suffering like my suffering
that was inflicted on me,
that the LORD brought on me..." (Lam. 1:12)

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

I realize the Acts 16 citation does support that view. IMO, other passages such as John 1:12-14, John 3, 1 Pet. 1:23, and the verse you cited from Rom. 10 argue *against* RPF.

[One Bad Pig]

Calvinism doesn't deny that sinners have a free will. Mankind freely rebel against God and freely love their sin more than God. That's what they choose of their own will. They freely reject the Gospel message when they hear it. That's what they desire to do. That is what is in their heart.

If you can't make your case without playing word games....

Btw, sometimes I don't care for the tag " Calvinism " because it implies the theology is more recent than what it is. This debate is as old as Pelagian disagreeing with Augustine praying " God command what thou will, and grant what thou commands. "

That Pelagius believed wrongly does not absolve Augustine of error in over-correcting Pelagian error. I agree that Calvin was more or less taking Augustinian belief to its logical conclusion.