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The Silence of Heaven

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  • #46
    Nick do you believe the Holy Spirit will convict someone individually? Make their conscience kick in when they are about to do something wrong, or even when they are trying to avoid doing something they should?

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    • #47
      Sparko. I have no problem with the SPirit working through our conscience, though even then that is not always accurate. Some people have overly sensitive consciences. Then there are people like my friend David Wood who is a sociopath with no conscience.

      As for individualistic, think of people who have the idea of finding "God's will for your life" and think that God talks to them practically everyday telling them how they ought to make every decision.

      I fully agree with CP. God can indeed speak today and I think at times He does, but it is not normative for us today. I don't normally care for John MacArthur, but I do agree with him about the guy who says God talks to him while he's shaving. Why do you keep shaving then?

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
        Sparko. I have no problem with the SPirit working through our conscience, though even then that is not always accurate. Some people have overly sensitive consciences. Then there are people like my friend David Wood who is a sociopath with no conscience.

        As for individualistic, think of people who have the idea of finding "God's will for your life" and think that God talks to them practically everyday telling them how they ought to make every decision.

        I fully agree with CP. God can indeed speak today and I think at times He does, but it is not normative for us today. I don't normally care for John MacArthur, but I do agree with him about the guy who says God talks to him while he's shaving. Why do you keep shaving then?
        Nobody here is arguing for God speaking audibly or guiding our every move with complete inerrancy. I don't think even the people who use such jargon as "God told me to..." even think that. I think that is just the spiritual jargon speaking there.
        Of course there are those who go overboard, but mostly I see that with the extreme pentacostal types, or word of faith guys.

        Most people believe that if we listen, we can get guidance from the Holy Spirit through prayer, reading the bible and talking to others. I think the Holy Spirit does guide us and lead us if we let him. And many times it is through our conscience and bringing to mind relevant scriptures.

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        • #49
          I usually get suspicious when people start saying "Well listen to what God is telling you to do" with no Biblical mandate for that and people spending less time in the Scriptures.

          The Scriptures, we know come from God. I don't know about the personal feelings and experiences that I have in my life.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
            I usually get suspicious when people start saying "Well listen to what God is telling you to do" with no Biblical mandate for that and people spending less time in the Scriptures.

            The Scriptures, we know come from God. I don't know about the personal feelings and experiences that I have in my life.
            well I think God does have plans for each of us. He is sovereign. And I think we each have our part to play in his plans. It's like a river. you can go with the flow, or you can try to fight it, but the river is going where it wants to regardless of what you do.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
              I usually get suspicious when people start saying "Well listen to what God is telling you to do" with no Biblical mandate for that and people spending less time in the Scriptures.
              You have the Holy Spirit within you, yes? Why wouldn't God give you direction? Yes, people should spend more time in the Scriptures. That doesn't mean we shouldn't listen to the promptings of God.
              The Scriptures, we know come from God.
              Because why? Nowhere in the Scriptures does it lay out what is included. You're verging on advocacy of Solo Scriptura here, Nick.
              I don't know about the personal feelings and experiences that I have in my life.
              For analysis of personal feelings and experiences, let Scripture be your guide; you can safely ignore anything not in line with it. If the promptings ARE in line with it, just maybe you should pay attention.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                well I think God does have plans for each of us. He is sovereign. And I think we each have our part to play in his plans. It's like a river. you can go with the flow, or you can try to fight it, but the river is going where it wants to regardless of what you do.
                When I meet people who tell me that they want to know what God's plan is for them, I always tell them the same thing. To conform you to the likeness of Christ. That's His plan. There are a lot of things in there and many of them you have a great deal of freedom in.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  You have the Holy Spirit within you, yes? Why wouldn't God give you direction? Yes, people should spend more time in the Scriptures. That doesn't mean we shouldn't listen to the promptings of God.
                  It depends on the situation. I think God gives us wisdom and I think He might intervene where something He wants us to do goes greatly contrary to what we think the way of wisdom is. I know Allie has had a few times like this in her life.

                  Because why? Nowhere in the Scriptures does it lay out what is included. You're verging on advocacy of Solo Scriptura here, Nick.
                  Not at all. If I want to believe something is true, it can't contradict Scripture definitely, but I do like to find some Scriptural backing for something as much as I can. The problem I have is when many people tell me they are hearing from God, they do not tell me how they know it is the voice of God whether audible or inaudible and I fear a lot of people are giving divine authority to their feelings.

                  For analysis of personal feelings and experiences, let Scripture be your guide; you can safely ignore anything not in line with it. If the promptings ARE in line with it, just maybe you should pay attention.
                  I have no problem with that.

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                  • #54
                    I will give you an example of how I think God is "speaking" to me through my conscience just now.

                    I have spent a couple of hundred dollars on Christmas presents this year for my family (brothers and their wives and kids). But I am single and don't have any wife or children of my own. I have been feeling the need to spend some of my money on helping some of the homeless people I see every day. I feel like God is telling me to help them. I didn't feel this last year, but this year it is gnawing at me. I have the money. I know it is the right thing to do. It fits with scripture. And so I am doing it. I just ordered a bunch of various supplies and I am going to make up some Christmas goody bags and hand them out to the people I see that I think need them.

                    Do I KNOW it is God directing me or convicting me to do that? Not for sure, but it is such a strong desire that I can't ignore it and even if it is just my own personal guilt driving me, so what? I will still be doing God's will, because I know his will is for us to help others.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                      If I want to believe something is true, it can't contradict Scripture definitely, but I do like to find some Scriptural backing for something as much as I can.
                      Sure.
                      The problem I have is when many people tell me they are hearing from God, they do not tell me how they know it is the voice of God whether audible or inaudible and I fear a lot of people are giving divine authority to their feelings.
                      I don't know why you keep hammering this point home, Nick. No one here is arguing that that is legitimate.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        For Sparko, it could be God. It could not be. I don't know. I can't say. What do I know? I think it's a very admirable thing to do and should be done. I know we have very recently been blessed by the generosity of some of our friends. It has been incredible.

                        For the Pig, I say it because while no one here is saying this, my blog is not just for TWeb, but for other readers and there are too many Christians I know who do this exact thing. This is the mindset that troubles me the most.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                          For the Pig, I say it because while no one here is saying this, my blog is not just for TWeb, but for other readers and there are too many Christians I know who do this exact thing. This is the mindset that troubles me the most.
                          But... this isn't your blog. Why do you keep raising it *here*?
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Because that's what I had in mind when I wrote it.

                            By the way, this might be my last response until Monday. No posting on Sunday after all.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Moderated By: Bill the Cat


                              All of JimL's responses and posts to/from him have been removed

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                              Last edited by Bill the Cat; 12-18-2018, 02:36 PM.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                              • #60
                                To be honest, this topic has been an area of personal interest for me for some time. Years ago, I sought God's will for something specific. There was no conflict with Scripture (as either option was Scriptural), but I had a choice to make and I wanted to know if this was part of God's plan for my life. I prayed daily about it for months, asking for some sort of sign. Then one day, I received my answer. I suddenly knew specific information with 100% certainty, and I didn't possess the facts to ascertain this information on my own. Because of the context and nature of this information and how it related to my personal dilemma, I was instantly convinced this was a sign from God, that I had received direction about what to do. It's hard to convey how it felt because I've never felt that way before or since, but I thought at the time that I knew what choice God wanted me to make and that I also had a rough idea about how the choice would play out. I'm naturally an indecisive and cautious person. I'm never 100% sure about anything. So when this feeling overwhelmed me, I felt it was from outside myself.

                                Boy, I've never been more wrong about anything in my life. I made my choice and the consequences played out terribly. What happened was the polar opposite of what I thought would happen (and also what I wanted to happen). This put me in a rough spot. None of this was about ego, as very few people knew about my decision and I hadn't told anyone that I thought I'd heard from God (indeed, I didn't speak to anyone of this for probably 5 years at least). I felt betrayed, as if I had sought God's guidance and been mislead. Then doubt crept in. Had I actually received any direction from God at all? And worse still, if at the time I was so utterly convinced I had heard from God, and it turned out I was wrong....how in the world could I ever trust myself to make that sort of determination again? There was literally no way for me to know if God had spoken to me. And if there was no way to evaluate it, then it was pointless to ask for God to give me specific direction over...well, anything. This was the beginning of a rough period in my life. My personal beliefs began to trend agnostic, then atheistic. It was years before I could honestly admit to myself that God existed, because I thought it would be more convenient if He did not exist. My decisions would be easier to make, and there'd be no Divine standard of moral behavior.

                                Around this time, I read Silence by Shusaku Endo (actually it was assigned reading in a college course I was taking). The book is a brutal exploration of the meaning of God's silence. While the book was more dramatic that my personal situation, it encapsulated how I felt pretty well.

                                So, I guess all of that is what precipitated the deconstruction of my faith. Now, I'm in the process of reconstructing my faith. I'm trying to learn more about God's Word, but there are a lot of (mainstream) teachings from the church of my youth that I have trouble squaring with what I read in the Bible.

                                But, back to the topic at hand. I remain convinced that on rare occasions, God does speak to individuals. I've too much second-hand information to believe otherwise. However, I'm completely at a loss regarding how to know if specific feelings/desires/inclinations are from God or not. Obviously, they should square with Scripture. But beyond that, I've no idea. Which is probably why, though I ask for God's guidance regularly, I assume that guidance will come in form of him giving me wisdom as I study his Word and try to discern the truth. I guess it's been about 12 years since I asked God to speak to me.
                                "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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