Is monetary imagery of Jesus' salvation work Scriptural?

[robrecht]

St Francis agrees with Cow Poker, but thinks that it is not nice to poke cows.

[Paprika]

I'm more inclined to say "Mr Harper is still in the hospital, so how bout a bunch us grab our mowers and trimmers and take care of his property while praying for his recovery". I think teaching by DOING is more valuable than teaching by SAYING.

Sigh. All I'm (basically) saying is that we need to carefully define the words we use when speaking about things Scriptural so as to avoid error. You seem to be casting aspersions on that, and I really don't see why that's necessary.

[robrecht]

Sigh. All I'm (basically) saying is that we need to carefully define the words we use when speaking about things Scriptural so as to avoid error. You seem to be casting aspersions on that, and I really don't see why that's necessary.

I agree with you that some ideas of atonement are wrongly read into scripture and that this is overemphasized with respect to the entirety of the teachings of Jesus (and Paul).

[The Remonstrant]

Sigh. All I'm (basically) saying is that we need to carefully define the words we use when speaking about things Scriptural so as to avoid error. You seem to be casting aspersions on that, and I really don't see why that's necessary.

I agree with you that some ideas of atonement are wrongly read into scripture and that this is overemphasized with respect to the entirety of the teachings of Jesus (and Paul).

[Cow Poke]

Sigh. All I'm (basically) saying is that we need to carefully define the words we use when speaking about things Scriptural so as to avoid error.

When building or clarifying theology, sure.

You seem to be casting aspersions on that,

Not at all -- simply stressing that I think it's more important to DO than to hear or say.

and I really don't see why that's necessary.

Just getting back for some cow poking, that's all.

[robrecht]

Not at all -- simply stressing that I think it's more important to DO than to hear or say.

You, old liberal, you. Orthopraxis over orthodoxy.

Just getting back for some cow poking, that's all.

Doesn't Jesus teach us to turn the other heifer? Or would that be a red herring, ie, not a red heifer פרה אדומה. OMG, Sparko is rubbing off on me, eek!

[Cow Poke]

You, old liberal, you. Orthopraxis over orthodoxy.

Ya know, as I get older, I'm less focused on the jot and tittle... Maybe it's cause I can see the finish line a little clearer?

Doesn't Jesus teach us to turn the other heifer? Or would that be a red herring, ie, not a red heifer פרה אדומה. OMG, Sparko is rubbing off on me, eek!

I guess I get Texas Justice confused with Biblical Foundations sometimes..... "yer honor, he just needed killin"*



*which reminds me of an old story of a .... well, long story, but the punch line was "forgive him, it will teach him a lesson" in lieu of "hang him, it will teach him a lesson".

[Littlejoe]

In John chapter 19:28 and again in vs 30, A. John uses a term found only in those two verses of scripture. Tetelestai (sorry, I don't know how to do greek letters). The word translated usually as it is completed, or it is finished. However, Tetelestai had another use in the Greek culture of the day. It was a commonly used accounting term to describe the status of an account. The Moulton and Milligan Greek - English Lexicon says this:

“Receipts are often introduced by the phrase [sic] tetelestai, usually written in an abbreviated manner...” (p. 630).

Indicating the account was closed, that it had been settled or the debt had been Paid in Full.

[Cow Poke]

In John chapter 19:28 and again in vs 30, A. John uses a term found only in those two verses of scripture. Tetelestai (sorry, I don't know how to do greek letters). The word translated usually as it is completed, or it is finished. However, Tetelestai had another use in the Greek culture of the day. It was a commonly used accounting term to describe the status of an account. The Moulton and Milligan Greek - English Lexicon says this:
Indicating the account was closed, that it had been settled or the debt had been Paid in Full.

Yeah, somewhere I have a college paper on this from way back when. And it's where we get the old Gospel song "The old Account was settled long ago".

[Paprika]

In John chapter 19:28 and again in vs 30, A. John uses a term found only in those two verses of scripture. Tetelestai (sorry, I don't know how to do greek letters). The word translated usually as it is completed, or it is finished. However, Tetelestai had another use in the Greek culture of the day. It was a commonly used accounting term to describe the status of an account. The Moulton and Milligan Greek - English Lexicon says this:
Indicating the account was closed, that it had been settled or the debt had been Paid in Full.

I was waiting for someone to bring that up.

After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished[ (τετέλεσται), said (to fulfill (τελειωθῇ) the Scripture), “I thirst.” A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished[ (τετέλεσται),” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Compare this to John 13 and John 17:

Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end(εἰς τέλος )

I glorified you on earth, having accomplished (τελειώσας) the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

I in them and you in me – that they may be completely one (τετελειωμένοι εἰς)

Yes, τετέλεσται in certain contexts can mean that a debt is paid, but the context of John's gospel (especially the lexical) does not indicate it at all, but rather the meaning of completion, finishing, ending. Any secondary meaning of the word in monetary terms is not indicated at all.

(Well, you are free to show that the 'paid' meaning of τετέλεσται is also indicated by the narrative and we can then have a back and forth about it. Otherwise, you're just saying that since

P1) τετέλεσται has the alternative meaning in some contexts of the payment of debt
P2) Jesus said τετέλεσται
C) Therefore Jesus must have meant that a debt was paid, in addition to the primary meaning of completion

The argument isn't valid and the conclusion doesn't follow.)