St Francis agrees with Cow Poker, but thinks that it is not nice to poke cows.
Announcement
Collapse
Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Is monetary imagery of Jesus' salvation work Scriptural?
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'm more inclined to say "Mr Harper is still in the hospital, so how bout a bunch us grab our mowers and trimmers and take care of his property while praying for his recovery". I think teaching by DOING is more valuable than teaching by SAYING.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Paprika View PostSigh. All I'm (basically) saying is that we need to carefully define the words we use when speaking about things Scriptural so as to avoid error. You seem to be casting aspersions on that, and I really don't see why that's necessary.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
Comment
-
Originally posted by Paprika View PostSigh. All I'm (basically) saying is that we need to carefully define the words we use when speaking about things Scriptural so as to avoid error. You seem to be casting aspersions on that, and I really don't see why that's necessary.
Originally posted by robrecht View PostI agree with you that some ideas of atonement are wrongly read into scripture and that this is overemphasized with respect to the entirety of the teachings of Jesus (and Paul).For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
Comment
-
Originally posted by Paprika View PostSigh. All I'm (basically) saying is that we need to carefully define the words we use when speaking about things Scriptural so as to avoid error.
You seem to be casting aspersions on that,
and I really don't see why that's necessary.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostNot at all -- simply stressing that I think it's more important to DO than to hear or say.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostJust getting back for some cow poking, that's all.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
Comment
-
Originally posted by robrecht View PostYou, old liberal, you. Orthopraxis over orthodoxy.
Doesn't Jesus teach us to turn the other heifer? Or would that be a red herring, ie, not a red heifer פרה אדומה. OMG, Sparko is rubbing off on me, eek!
*which reminds me of an old story of a .... well, long story, but the punch line was "forgive him, it will teach him a lesson" in lieu of "hang him, it will teach him a lesson".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
In John chapter 19:28 and again in vs 30, A. John uses a term found only in those two verses of scripture. Tetelestai (sorry, I don't know how to do greek letters). The word translated usually as it is completed, or it is finished. However, Tetelestai had another use in the Greek culture of the day. It was a commonly used accounting term to describe the status of an account. The Moulton and Milligan Greek - English Lexicon says this:
“Receipts are often introduced by the phrase [sic] tetelestai, usually written in an abbreviated manner...” (p. 630)."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostIn John chapter 19:28 and again in vs 30, A. John uses a term found only in those two verses of scripture. Tetelestai (sorry, I don't know how to do greek letters). The word translated usually as it is completed, or it is finished. However, Tetelestai had another use in the Greek culture of the day. It was a commonly used accounting term to describe the status of an account. The Moulton and Milligan Greek - English Lexicon says this:
Indicating the account was closed, that it had been settled or the debt had been Paid in Full.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostIn John chapter 19:28 and again in vs 30, A. John uses a term found only in those two verses of scripture. Tetelestai (sorry, I don't know how to do greek letters). The word translated usually as it is completed, or it is finished. However, Tetelestai had another use in the Greek culture of the day. It was a commonly used accounting term to describe the status of an account. The Moulton and Milligan Greek - English Lexicon says this:
Indicating the account was closed, that it had been settled or the debt had been Paid in Full.
After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished[ (τετέλεσται), said (to fulfill (τελειωθῇ) the Scripture), “I thirst.” A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished[ (τετέλεσται),” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end(εἰς τέλος )I glorified you on earth, having accomplished (τελειώσας) the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.I in them and you in me – that they may be completely one (τετελειωμένοι εἰς)
(Well, you are free to show that the 'paid' meaning of τετέλεσται is also indicated by the narrative and we can then have a back and forth about it. Otherwise, you're just saying that since
P1) τετέλεσται has the alternative meaning in some contexts of the payment of debt
P2) Jesus said τετέλεσται
C) Therefore Jesus must have meant that a debt was paid, in addition to the primary meaning of completion
The argument isn't valid and the conclusion doesn't follow.)Last edited by Paprika; 05-04-2014, 05:25 AM.
Comment
widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
Comment