Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Prevalence of moon landing conspiracy theories

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Yes, I've heard that song and dance before, and it doesn't get any better the more I hear it.

    For the record, I have no firm opinion about the age of the Earth one way or the other. I think a good case can be made for a variety of hypotheses, and it doesn't much matter to me which one happens to be correct, because it doesn't change anything as far as my worldview is concerned.
    Ah, no, there is a firm case that the earth formed approximatly 4.5 billion years ago, about 10 billion years after the Big Bang. If you can make a good case to the contrary, sure would like to hear it.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Thank you for providing this, at least. It's not quite as damning on its face as you imply, since the qualifiers on "evidence" would not refer to actual evidence - but it would not surprise me if it was used to dismiss actual evidence. There is a reason I no longer support AiG. I no longer think the YEC interpretation is especially likely.

      That said, you're doing a whole lot of broad brushing in your screed, much of it having little to do with actual evidence. You complain of cherry-picking while engaging in it extensively yourself. Just my 0.02.
      To clarify the statements requires one actually delve into what the evidence is and why there is no legitimate alternate interpretation of it that will allow for anything close to legitimacy for the YEC position. It is not a subject that can be dealt with convincingly with broad brush strokes. In fact, if one chooses to try to understand all that is required to make an informed decision, it will involve studying and becoming fairly familiar with a rather wide range of the sciences, physics, chemistry, biology, paleontology, genetics to name a few. That is in many ways why so many can be led down the primrose path so to speak. To actually know if the YEC fellow or the MS science fellow is making sense, one needs to know a good deal about the topics being discussed. And so most people not well versed in the sciences tend to go with what the fellow is saying that has the same worldview they do. That is one of the reasons many of us have little patience with the YEC leaders. Whether they will admit it or not, many of them do in fact know that what they are saying isn't really a valid scientific position. They believe they are justified saying what they say for other reasons, but in the end, they are in fact deceiving the people that follow their writings and their words, because they lead those people to believe science can legitimately be used to back up their theological position, when in fact it can not.

      Jim
      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 12-15-2018, 10:00 PM.
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        it doesn't much matter to me which one happens to be correct, because it doesn't change anything as far as my worldview is concerned.

        ...always go back to the Cross....
        Well the traditional YEC theological argument is that an old earth would imply death existed in the world prior to the Fall, and would imply that Genesis & Paul are wrong in their claim that death entered the world as a result of Adam's sin, and then that would mean Paul's analogy that life entered the world through Christ in contrast to death through Adam all falls apart, and it would mean that not merely is Paul wrong but it brings into question the whole point of the cross if Christ is not actually undoing Adam's sin.

        Thus the typical YEC view is that not only does accepting an old earth mean a denial of biblical inerrancy, it also makes the cross meaningless.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Thank you for providing this, at least. It's not quite as damning on its face as you imply, since the qualifiers on "evidence" would not refer to actual evidence - but it would not surprise me if it was used to dismiss actual evidence. There is a reason I no longer support AiG. I no longer think the YEC interpretation is especially likely.

          That said, you're doing a whole lot of broad brushing in your screed, much of it having little to do with actual evidence. You complain of cherry-picking while engaging in it extensively yourself. Just my 0.02.
          Examples please. I admit this was a summary and could go into more detail if you wish.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            ...always go back to the Cross....
            Which has nothing to do with questions concerning the age of God's creation or whether or not life has changed and adapted after it arose -- in spite of folks like Ken Ham trying to base our salvation upon it.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Which has nothing to do with questions concerning the age of God's creation or whether or not life has changed and adapted after it arose -- in spite of folks like Ken Ham trying to base our salvation upon it.
              And in spite of quite many others doing the same. I have always wondered why it was so difficult to present a message that would not allow for so many different interpretations and so many ideas that had to be adjusted during the course of history. And feel free to point to the fact that I am not a believer. It gets you nowhere since so many believers disagree on this to some extent anyway and have done so throughout history.
              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Yes, I've heard that song and dance before, and it doesn't get any better the more I hear it.

                For the record, I have no firm opinion about the age of the Earth one way or the other. I think a good case can be made for a variety of hypotheses, and it doesn't much matter to me which one happens to be correct, because it doesn't change anything as far as my worldview is concerned.
                Well, you confronted the easy part of Rogue's post which was just a claim. The rest of it is a lot more interesting and a lot more challenging.
                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                Comment


                • #53
                  It is always refreshing to go back in history to put things into perspective when having these sorts of discussions. Let's take a look on how a student reported on Martin Luther's critique of heliocentrism:

                  "There was mention of a certain new astrologer who wanted to prove that the earth moves and not the sky, the sun and the moon. This would be as if somebody were riding on a cart or in a ship and imagined that he was standing still while the earth and trees were moving. Luther remarked, 'So it goes now. Whoever wants to be clever … must do something of his own. This is what that fellow does who wishes to turn the whole of astronomy upside down. … I believe the Holy Scriptures, for Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.'" https://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...opernicus.html
                  I believe the Holy Scriptures, for Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth...
                  Last edited by Charles; 12-16-2018, 05:18 AM.
                  "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Charles View Post
                    I believe the Holy Scriptures, for Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth...
                    What a clown.

                    Even the most brilliant scientist will speak casually of sunrise and sunset, not "that point in time where the earth has sufficiently rotated to such an extent to where the sun is visible on the horizon....."

                    By the way.... looks like the beginnings of a beautiful sunrise in Texas, so....
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      What a clown.

                      Even the most brilliant scientist will speak casually of sunrise and sunset, not "that point in time where the earth has sufficiently rotated to such an extent to where the sun is visible on the horizon....."

                      By the way.... looks like the beginnings of a beautiful sunrise in Texas, so....
                      Here is the sun "rising" at my house this morning.

                      sunrise Sunday.jpg

                      It will continue to "travel across the sky" before "setting" in the early evening.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        The moral ideas that drive the abortion debate are not science. Science can answer questions like when does the developing baby feel pain, when does its heart beat, when does it have brain waves. It can't answer the moral question of whether or not that developing persons rights are equal to its mothers. It can't judge under what circumstances it is acceptable to terminate the pregnancy and when it is not. We define those things based on our morals and our ideology. Science can't define what is wrong or what is right. That is a moral, ideological judgement. If our moral judgement says a person has rights once they can think, then we can use science to determine when that developing baby starts to think. But abortion is fundamentally a moral issue, not a scientific one.


                        Jim
                        way to completely NOT address anything I said Jim and just repeat yourself. Did I mention fetal pain or rights? No. and you didn't address any of my other points.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          The moral ideas that drive the abortion debate are not science. Science can answer questions like when does the developing baby feel pain, when does its heart beat, when does it have brain waves. It can't answer the moral question of whether or not that developing persons rights are equal to its mothers. It can't judge under what circumstances it is acceptable to terminate the pregnancy and when it is not. We define those things based on our morals and our ideology. Science can't define what is wrong or what is right. That is a moral, ideological judgement. If our moral judgement says a person has rights once they can think, then we can use science to determine when that developing baby starts to think. But abortion is fundamentally a moral issue, not a scientific one.


                          Jim
                          Dodge noted.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            The moral ideas that drive the abortion debate are not science. Science can answer questions like when does the developing baby feel pain, when does its heart beat, when does it have brain waves. It can't answer the moral question of whether or not that developing persons rights are equal to its mothers. It can't judge under what circumstances it is acceptable to terminate the pregnancy and when it is not. We define those things based on our morals and our ideology. Science can't define what is wrong or what is right. That is a moral, ideological judgement. If our moral judgement says a person has rights once they can think, then we can use science to determine when that developing baby starts to think. But abortion is fundamentally a moral issue, not a scientific one.


                            Jim
                            I completely agree with what you are saying. I will ad though that some statements in favour of abortion (or even against) are of such a sort that they are demonstrable wrong. That does not mean the discussion in and of itself is one in which science can give us the answer.
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              What a clown.

                              Even the most brilliant scientist will speak casually of sunrise and sunset, not "that point in time where the earth has sufficiently rotated to such an extent to where the sun is visible on the horizon....."

                              By the way.... looks like the beginnings of a beautiful sunrise in Texas, so....
                              Well the most brilliant scientist today knows a lot more than Luther did. And Luther seemingly became a clown because he held on to descriptions in scripture that have been reinterpreted later on in order for the words to fit with a modern world view. Wouldn't it have been great if it was just so easy to see throughout all history that those verses were not a description of scientific reality?
                              Last edited by Charles; 12-16-2018, 12:35 PM.
                              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Charles View Post
                                It is always refreshing to go back in history to put things into perspective when having these sorts of discussions. Let's take a look on how a student reported on Martin Luther's critique of heliocentrism:



                                I believe the Holy Scriptures, for Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth...
                                It wasn't until Galileo's time that even the scientific community, such as it was, started to seriously question whether or not that sun orbited the earth. So while today, considering what we know now, it is easy to sneer disdainfully at Luther for what he said, we should keep in mind that he was hardly outside the mainstream of the "scientific consensus" of his time. But there is still an important lesson to be learned, which is that the Bible was never meant to be read as a scientific textbook -- something that many people even today can't quite grasp. It was and still is concerned with what can be called larger truths.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                162 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                400 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                114 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                198 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                379 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X