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Left Wing Christmas Carol

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    I suggest you refer back to my Encyclopedia Britannica link, which makes the point that the origin of assigning December 25 as the birth date of Jesus is not certain.
    Your source needs a serious updating as it gets several things demonstrably wrong.

    First, the festival for Sol Invictus being celebrated on Dec. 25 was established by Marcus Aurelius c. 274 or 275 A.D. -- almost three quarters of a century after it was being celebrated in Rome on that day. Prior to that it was celebrated on a wide variety of days, including in August, but never on December 25th.

    Second, December 25 was first identified as the date of Jesus’ birth by Hippolytus of Rome in his Commentary on the prophet Daniel in the early part of the first decade of the third century, almost two decades before Sextus Julius Africanus did so in 221.

    Third, the Saturnalia festival was traditionally celebrated sometime between December 17th and 23rd. If you want to co-opt another holiday then you aren't going to place them on different days.

    Fourth, during the time that December 25th was first declared to be the date of Christ's birth Christianity was a persecuted minority and were opposed to borrowing from pagan traditions of such an obvious character but were instead taking great pains to distinguish themself from them. That practice didn't begin to change until after Constantine converted to Christianity a century later.

    So the idea that Christmas being celebrated on December 25th as an attempt to co-opt pagan celebrations not just falls flat but falls hard.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Your source needs a serious updating as it gets several things demonstrably wrong.
      Well you'd better inform my source, namely the Encyclopedia Britannica, that it's got things so "wrong". I'm sure it would be glad to correct its errors so as to continue enjoying its popular and critical reputation for general excellence.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Well you'd better inform my source, namely the Encyclopedia Britannica, that it's got things so "wrong". I'm sure it would be glad to correct its errors so as to continue enjoying its popular and critical reputation for general excellence.
        Argument from authority duly noted. All those mistakes I noted are easy to confirm for yourself or anyone else who wishes to check.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Argument from authority duly noted. All those mistakes I noted are easy to confirm for yourself or anyone else who wishes to check.
          They are not mistakes because there are no consistent facts to dispute, merely opinions deriving from a disparate variety of sources. All that can be said with certainly is that the month and date of Jesus' birth are unknown and that it is not until the fourth century the Western Christian Church had fixed the date of Christmas as December 25. Further to my point, the celebratory customs associated in various countries with Christmas have a mix of pre-Christian, Christian, and secular themes and origins.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            They are not mistakes because there are no consistent facts to dispute, merely opinions deriving from a disparate variety of sources. All that can be said with certainly is that the month and date of Jesus' birth are unknown and that it is not until the fourth century the Western Christian Church had fixed the date of Christmas as December 25. Further to my point, the celebratory customs associated in various countries with Christmas have a mix of pre-Christian, Christian, and secular themes and origins.
            Really?

            It is an indisputable fact that it was Marcus Aurelius who set the Sol Invictus celebration on December 25th between 274 and 275 A.D. Strike one.

            It is an indisputable fact that, even according to your source, this was decades after Christians were celebrating Christmas on December 25 (meaning it would have been impossible for Christians to have used this date in order to co-opt that pagan holiday sans prophetic ability or a time machine). Strike two.

            It is an indisputable fact that Hippolytus of Rome, in his Commentary on the prophet Daniel, mentioned Christmas being celebrated almost two decades before Sextus Julius Africanus did. Strike three. You're out.

            Care to bring up another batter?
            Last edited by rogue06; 12-29-2018, 06:20 AM.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment

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