Left Wing Christmas Carol

[seer]

Progressive churches are singing rewritten Christmas carols to fight climate change

https://www.theblaze.com/news/church...climate-change

Joy to the world is now...

Cool down the world / the time has come / for targets tight and fair
Let petrol, oil, and coal / prepare to go
Let's fund renewables
Let's fund renewables
Let's fund, let's fund renewables

[One Bad Pig]

December 25th is thought by many to have been chosen to celebrate Jesus' birth, because the Winter Solstice and the ancient pagan Roman midwinter festivals called 'Saturnalia' and 'Dies Natalis Solis Invicti' took place in December around this date. It was a time when people already celebrated things. So rather than attempt the elimination of a popular festival it was Christianised. Christianising pagan festivals was not an uncommon form of minimizing the importance of paganism and promoting Christianity in its stead.

Dies Natalis Solis Invicti was established in the 3rd century by Marcus Aurelius - after Christians in Rome began celebrating Christmas on that day. You've got the borrowing the wrong way 'round. Christ's Nativity was initially celebrated in the East as an ancillary part of Theophany, on January 6. Theophany is still arguably the bigger of the festivals in the East (though as rogue attests, both pale in importance next to Pascha - derived from Passover, which should give you a clue as to its origins).

[rogue06]

December 25th is thought by many to have been chosen to celebrate Jesus' birth, because the Winter Solstice and the ancient pagan Roman midwinter festivals called 'Saturnalia' and 'Dies Natalis Solis Invicti' took place in December around this date. It was a time when people already celebrated things. So rather than attempt the elimination of a popular festival it was Christianised. Christianising pagan festivals was not an uncommon form of minimizing the importance of paganism and promoting Christianity in its stead.

Simply repeating what was revealed to be false does not suddenly make it true. And adding Dies Natalis Solis Invicti into your faerie tale isn't going to help.

The dating of Christmas was influenced by the Jewish concept that great figures lived an exact number of years (dying on the day that they were conceived). Christians, at least since the first decade of the third century held that Jesus was conceived on March 25 (see the Commentary on the prophet Daniel

[rogue06]

Dies Natalis Solis Invicti was established in the 3rd century by Marcus Aurelius - after Christians in Rome began celebrating Christmas on that day. You've got the borrowing the wrong way 'round. Christ's Nativity was initially celebrated in the East as an ancillary part of Theophany, on January 6. Theophany is still arguably the bigger of the festivals in the East (though as rogue attests, both pale in importance next to Pascha - derived from Passover, which should give you a clue as to its origins).

The simple fact that Christians were celebrating Christ's birthday on December 25 before the festival for Sol Invictus (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti) was established on December 25 demonstrates that if anything the festival was actually later syncretized with Christmas rather than the other way around.

[Tassman]

Simply repeating what was revealed to be false does not suddenly make it true. And adding Dies Natalis Solis Invicti into your faerie tale isn't going to help.

The dating of Christmas was influenced by the Jewish concept that great figures lived an exact number of years (dying on the day that they were conceived). Christians, at least since the first decade of the third century held that Jesus was conceived on March 25 (see the Commentary on the prophet Daniel

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christmas

The bottom line is that we don't really know; there are many possible explanations.

[Tassman]

Dies Natalis Solis Invicti was established in the 3rd century by Marcus Aurelius - after Christians in Rome began celebrating Christmas on that day. You've got the borrowing the wrong way 'round. Christ's Nativity was initially celebrated in the East as an ancillary part of Theophany, on January 6. Theophany is still arguably the bigger of the festivals in the East (though as rogue attests, both pale in importance next to Pascha - derived from Passover, which should give you a clue as to its origins).

I believe it is usually known as 'The Feast of the Epiphany' rather than "Theophany", but January 6th still is much more important in the Eastern Church than the Latin rite Christmas Day. It commemorates the manifestation of Jesus to the Gentiles.

[rogue06]

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christmas

The bottom line is that we don't really know; there are many possible explanations.

Hippolytus of Rome's Commentary on Daniel was composed in the first decade of the 3rd century and is the first mention that we have of Christmas being celebrated on December 25th but the matter-of-fact mentioning of it indicates that the tradition goes back further.

The Saturnalia festival was never celebrated on December 25th but earlier in the month (as I noted "If you're going to co-opt a holiday you generally don't want them taking place on different days")

The festival for Sol Invictus on December 25 was only established c. 274 or 275 A.D. -- which was nearly three quarters of a century after Christians celebrated Christmas on this day and indicates that if anything that festival was actually later syncretized with Christmas rather than the other way around.

[Tassman]

Hippolytus of Rome's Commentary on Daniel was composed in the first decade of the 3rd century and is the first mention that we have of Christmas being celebrated on December 25th but the matter-of-fact mentioning of it indicates that the tradition goes back further.

The Saturnalia festival was never celebrated on December 25th but earlier in the month (as I noted "If you're going to co-opt a holiday you generally don't want them taking place on different days")

The festival for Sol Invictus on December 25 was only established c. 274 or 275 A.D. -- which was nearly three quarters of a century after Christians celebrated Christmas on this day and indicates that if anything that festival was actually later syncretized with Christmas rather than the other way around.

There are several possibilities, no certainties as to the origin of Christmas on the 25th December. And given that it took several centuries to get established it's reasonable to say that we will never know. But an authoritative source such as Encyclopedia Britannica suggest strong links to the prevailing pagan festival of the era.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christmas

There are certainly lots of Pagan customs attached to Christmas, because early Christians adapted their Pagan customs to fit their new Christian beliefs, e.g. Christmas trees.

[rogue06]

There are several possibilities, no certainties as to the origin of Christmas on the 25th December. And given that it took several centuries to get established it's reasonable to say that we will never know. But an authoritative source such as Encyclopedia Britannica suggest strong links to the prevailing pagan festival of the era.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christmas

There are certainly lots of Pagan customs attached to Christmas, because early Christians adapted their Pagan customs to fit their new Christian beliefs, e.g. Christmas trees.

And yet the fact remains that Christmas was being celebrated on December 25th generations before the festival for Sol Invictus was moved to that date and the Saturnalia festival was never celebrated on that date. So your claims that Christians picked December 25 to co-opt these pagan celebrations is patently false.

[One Bad Pig]

I believe it is usually known as 'The Feast of the Epiphany' rather than "Theophany", but January 6th still is much more important in the Eastern Church than the Latin rite Christmas Day. It commemorates the manifestation of Jesus to the Gentiles.

In the West it's known as Epiphany, but the usual name in the East is Theophany. I can't much speak for the West (which IIRC commemorates the visit of the magi then), but in the East - as the typical name for the feast attests - the commemoration is of the initial revelation of God in Trinity and the inauguration of the symbolic death we undergo in our own baptisms to be raised to walk in the newness of life.

[Tassman]

And yet the fact remains that Christmas was being celebrated on December 25th generations before the festival for Sol Invictus was moved to that date and the Saturnalia festival was never celebrated on that date.

I suggest you refer back to my link, which makes the point the precise origin of assigning December 25 as the birth date of Jesus is not a certain as you want to make it.

So your claims that Christians picked December 25 to co-opt these pagan celebrations is patently false.

It is not my claim that Christians picked December 25 to co-opt these pagan celebrations . But Christians nevertheless did co-opt numerous traditions that were of pagan origin.

[Tassman]

In the West it's known as Epiphany, but the usual name in the East is Theophany. I can't much speak for the West (which IIRC commemorates the visit of the magi then), but in the East - as the typical name for the feast attests - the commemoration is of the initial revelation of God in Trinity and the inauguration of the symbolic death we undergo in our own baptisms to be raised to walk in the newness of life.

Ah, interesting. Thanks.

[Cerebrum123]

[rogue06]

It is not my claim that Christians picked December 25 to co-opt these pagan celebrations

[Tassman]

I suggest you refer back to my Encyclopedia Britannica link, which makes the point that the origin of assigning December 25 as the birth date of Jesus is not certain.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christmas