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Poll of views on US Civil War

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I lived in Virginia for many years, and once when covering a story in Danville (a city which to this day prides itself for being "The Last Capital of the South") about a new monument honoring Confederate soldiers, the city council woman who spoke at the unveiling ceremony made the mistake of suggesting that it was to honor "all those who fought and died in the Civil War". Those in attendance were not happy and began loudly booing.
    I remember the first time I saw one of those graphs showing how may Americans died in various wars, I was astounded at the number of Americans who died in the Civil War. (Obviously, the vast majority if combatants were Americans*)

    americans killed in wars.jpg




    *I only say that here because I've had nutty people try to explain to me "well, what you don't understand......"
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      That's a rather self-serving justification on Stephens' part.

      "Yes, we fired the first shot, but they made us do it!"
      Interestingly, the commander of the Union forces in Charleston, Robert Anderson, was picked by General Winfield Scott specifically because he was thought to be sympathetic to the South and would therefore avoid any actions provocative to South Carolina. But that isn't what he did. After South Carolina seceded, Anderson, without orders, moved his garrison from Fort Moultrie to Fort Sumter in the middle of Charleston Harbor and had the cannons (which had been aimed seaward) moved so that they were trained upon the city instead. This act was considered highly proactive and defiant by both sides at the time as all of the other garrisons had simply moved out.

      James Buchanan, who was still president at the time that Anderson took matters into his own hands, was said to have been more than a little displeased.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        I remember the first time I saw one of those graphs showing how may Americans died in various wars, I was astounded at the number of Americans who died in the Civil War. (Obviously, the vast majority if combatants were Americans*)

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]33907[/ATTACH]




        *I only say that here because I've had nutty people try to explain to me "well, what you don't understand......"
        The thing with the casualty rate is that the majority was from disease in camp rather than from combat. To put it into somewhat of a perspective - at the battle of Gettysburg (July 1-3, 1863) there were about 55,000 total casualties with about 7000 KIA and the balance WIA. Of course some of the wounded died of their wounds later. The point is the horrific toll disease took on the soldiers of both sides in the confilct.
        We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

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        • #19
          1. Which was/is 'your' side?
          Even though I've lived south of the Mason-Dixon line for well over 50 years (North Carolina, Florida, Maryland and Georgia), I would ultimately side with the North.
          2. Was it inevitable?
          Probably not.
          3. Unionists were justified?
          In wanting to preserve the Union, yes.
          4. Confederacy was justified?
          In wanting to preserve their Sovereignty, yes.
          5. Was about slavery?
          6. Was about states' rights and secession?
          These two issues were largely intertwined. Keep in mind, the vast majority of Southerners that fought in the war didn't own slaves and weren't at all supportive of it if for no other reason that they felt that it gave an unfair advantage to the large land owners who could afford to keep slaves (which was still cheaper in the long run than having to constantly pay for hired hands).
          7. Was about something else?
          Such as?
          8. Hypothetical two nations better than one?
          No.
          9. Confederates were traitors, Unionists patriots?
          Not that clear cut by any means. See my answer for #6
          10. Modern Dems = party of liberal northern unionists, Reps = party of conservative southern confederates?
          Not. Even. Close.
          11. Approx decade of abolition of slavery in hypothetical Confederacy?
          I've read a good deal of speculative history on this with most experts seeing that slavery would quickly fall due to the rapid influx of industrialization seen in the 1880s. I figure it would have started being phased out by the end of the decade and likely gone by 1900 and definitely no later than 1910.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post
            The thing with the casualty rate is that the majority was from disease in camp rather than from combat. To put it into somewhat of a perspective - at the battle of Gettysburg (July 1-3, 1863) there were about 55,000 total casualties with about 7000 KIA and the balance WIA. Of course some of the wounded died of their wounds later. The point is the horrific toll disease took on the soldiers of both sides in the confilct.
            That has been true with any war up until WWII what with the advent of antibiotics and the like.

            Also keep in mind that in 1860 the total population was 31 million. In 1940 it was 132 million.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post
              The thing with the casualty rate is that the majority was from disease in camp rather than from combat. To put it into somewhat of a perspective - at the battle of Gettysburg (July 1-3, 1863) there were about 55,000 total casualties with about 7000 KIA and the balance WIA. Of course some of the wounded died of their wounds later. The point is the horrific toll disease took on the soldiers of both sides in the confilct.
              Yes, interesting observation, and something from which we learned -- the "golden hour" is one of those things.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                That has been true with any war up until WWII what with the advent of antibiotics and the like.

                Also keep in mind that in 1860 the total population was 31 million. In 1940 it was 132 million.
                Oh for sure it was a larger percent of the population in 1860. However, often I think people see the 620,000 figure and assume those are KIA, that's all.
                We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  7. Was about something else?

                  Cotton. Watch The Free State of Jones.
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  7. Was about something else?
                  Such as?
                  Interesting diversity of views so far on this question...


                  8. Hypothetical two nations better than one?

                  No. We are proven stronger together.
                  ...

                  11. Approx decade of abolition of slavery in hypothetical Confederacy?

                  1890s probably. Maybe 1900s at the latest.
                  There seems a fair amount of consensus on these particular questions so far.


                  Keep the answers coming! Non-American input is fine too, as per Roy's post.
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Yes, but a diplomatic solution was still possible until the first shot was fired. Whoever fires the first shot bears the responsibility of ending any chance of a peaceful resolution. But, of course, it's not a black and white issue.

                    Interestingly, most people at the time expected hostilities to be concluded within a matter of weeks. If they knew that it was the start of a drawn out bloody conflict, I suspect both sides would have worked all the harder to avoid it.
                    Comparisons with WW1 are impossible to avoid - that too lasted for four years, was ruinous, and was expected to be over quickly.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      1. Which was/is 'your' side?
                      The North.

                      2. Was it inevitable?
                      Well, nothing is inevitable.

                      3. Unionists were justified?
                      Yes

                      4. Confederacy was justified?
                      No

                      5. Was about slavery?
                      Basically, yes.

                      6. Was about states' rights and secession?
                      Essentially the states right to slavery. Other issues ensued as a result.

                      7. Was about something else?
                      No, essentially it was about slavery.

                      8. Hypothetical two nations better than one?
                      No.

                      9. Confederates were traitors, Unionists patriots?
                      No doubt.

                      10. Modern Dems = party of liberal northern unionists, Reps = party of conservative southern confederates?
                      Yes, the southern racist dixiecrats simply abandoned the democratic party for the republican party.

                      11. Approx decade of abolition of slavery in hypothetical Confederacy?[/box][/QUOTE]
                      Can't say.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        1. Which was/is 'your' side? I identify more with the cause of the Union, but I had ancestors who fought on both sides.
                        2. Was it inevitable? 4 at the time of the American Revolution, 9 by the 1850s
                        3. Unionists were justified? 9 (they wanted to preserve the Union and (later) abolish slaver)
                        4. Confederacy was justified? 2 (they overreacted, the Republicans only wanted to stop the spread of slavery)
                        5. Was about slavery? 9 (fear of abolition of slavery was the key reason the South seceded)
                        6. Was about states' rights and secession? 5 (mostly about secession wrt slavery)
                        7. Was about something else? 3 (economic issues had an impact, but a minor one)
                        8. Hypothetical two nations better than one? No, it would've been horrible for most blacks and bad for the economy overall
                        9. Confederates were traitors, Unionists patriots? Yes, if only because the Confederates seceded over a bad cause)
                        10. Modern Dems = party of liberal northern unionists, Reps = party of conservative southern confederates? 6 but the parties have changed so much its hard to tell
                        11. Approx decade of abolition of slavery in hypothetical Confederacy? 1940s at the latest, due to economic and possibly cultural changes
                        Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

                        "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

                        "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

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