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Thread: Did Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?

  1. #61
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Ah of course ... πριν is an accusative particle.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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    tWebber Georg Kaplin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Ah of course ... πριν is an accusative particle.
    Accusative? Can you explain what you mean by that? I'll be back in a couple hours.

  3. #63
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι
    before - Abraham - came to be - I - am

    Abraham - indeclinable noun
    came to be - aorist infinitive - to be (completed action)

    14 occurrences of πριν in the NT, most followed by infinitive verbs (πριν being more an adverb than particle)
    Very few occurrences where πριν is followed by a noun (usually the infamous rooster).
    Where followed immediately by a declinable noun, that noun is accusative.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  4. #64
    tWebber Georg Kaplin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι
    before - Abraham - came to be - I - am

    Abraham - indeclinable noun
    came to be - aorist infinitive - to be (completed action)

    14 occurrences of πριν in the NT, most followed by infinitive verbs (πριν being more an adverb than particle)
    Very few occurrences where πριν is followed by a noun (usually the infamous rooster).
    Where followed immediately by a declinable noun, that noun is accusative.
    Nouns have case, and accusative is the case of the direct object. Adverbs do not have case. So for example, the word god is θεος in the nominative and θεον in the accusative, that is for singular number. There are, in fact, no nouns in John 8:58 that are accusative. I would suggest a beginning Greek grammar like Mounce. That is what I started with over 20 years ago. My Wallace grammar is from 1996.

    That being said, I think you are pulling my leg :)

  5. #65
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    I do use Mounce's work, and do further research by looking at usages in the NT and the LXX. Occasionally the dictionaries and grammar texts don't pick up on (for example) colloquial usages, though that is less common in grammar texts.
    When used as nouns, infinitives are often best rendered in English as gerunds.

    prin.jpg

    πριν:
    note: in examples given below,
    "(did)" only marks a completed action - it isn't part of the translation.
    {~} indicates not in UBS5 texts.

    Matthew 1:18 ... πριν η συνελθειν αυτους ...

    common interlinear rendering - πρὶν (before) ἢ (rather) συνελθεῖν (coming together) - "H" precedes 2nd aorist infinitive "to (did) cohabit."
    Why is "H" given ἢ rather than ἡ? The infinitive can be used as a noun - and that usage frequently is marked by a definite article placed prior to the infinitive.

    Matthew 26:34 ... πριν αλεκτορα φωνησαι ...
    αλεκτορα "rooster" is in the accusative case. Where do grammar texts claim that an accusative noun can perform an action?
    φωνησαι "to (did) emit a sound" aorist active infinitive
    "Cock-crow" would preserve the sense - unless it can be shown that accusative nouns can perform actions; a claim which I've never encountered in any grammar text.

    πρὶν (before) {H} (the) ἐλθεῖν (coming) ἡμέραν (day) Κυρίου (of the Lord)
    ημεραν is accusative case
    ελθειν is 2nd aorist infinitive (to (did) come or go)
    ελθειν is preceded by H in Byzantine Majority texts = "the to {did} come or go."
    Frequently, this verse DOES render the infinitive as a gerund: "before the coming of the day of the Lord"

    ETA

    All up, noting that πριν is derived from προ, it would seem that πριν is used for verbs (which makes it an adverb) even when the verb is being used as a noun.
    Where it is used before a noun+verb composite, the noun will be in the accusative case.
    Last edited by tabibito; 05-18-2019 at 11:18 PM. Reason: ETA
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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