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Thread: Did Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?

  1. #211
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Hakeem accepts portions of verses that agree with him (if he can interpret them in a way that agrees with him I should say), while denying verses that prove him wrong. Then he repeats himself. That's all he has. Wash, rinse, repeat.

  2. Amen Chrawnus, Christian3, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  3. #212
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Hakeem accepts portions of verses that agree with him (if he can interpret them in a way that agrees with him I should say), while denying verses that prove him wrong. Then he repeats himself. That's all he has. Wash, rinse, repeat.
    Based on what I've seen it is how they interpret the Qur'an too.

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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Let me correct you as follows;

    1. Claiming "The Trinity allows for three persons to be God without there being three Gods" is not true because the trinity requires that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal. But according to Jesus, they are NOT co-equal because Jesus addressed the FATHER as "THE ONLY TRUE GOD" in John 17:1-3; therefore, the Son is true God and the Holy Spirit is not true God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Saying " John 17:3 is speaking of the Father as the only true God in opposition to all the false gods and idols of the world, and not in exclusion to the Son or the Holy Spirit" is not supported by John 17.
    Of course it is. The portion of John 17 that I cited shows that Jesus claimed shared glory with the Father on account of existing with the Father before creation, and no one except God deserves that kind of glory. Jesus is most definitely excluding Himself from those who are not the only true God.



    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    2. Still when Jesus said "no one knows of the day and that hour not even the angels in heaven but ONLY THE FATHER" in Mathew 24:36 means as Jesus said "ONLY THE FATHER" knows that hour excluding the HOLY SPIRIT.

    I already answered this by referring to the ancient Jewish marriage customs and you haven't dealt with it. Stop repeating your claim until you've dealt with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Jesus preexisting does not make Jesus God because Malechzdik is "without father and without mother without beginning of days and without ending of life like the Son" in Hebrew 7:3.
    Jesus didn't simply pre-exist, Philippians tells us He pre-existed in the form of God, and Jesus tells us in John 17 that He shared in the Father's glory as God. And any thing that pre-exists creation must necessarily be divine, since God was the only one existing before creation, so anyone/anything existing beside God before creation must be one with God, and of the same essence.

    The writer of Hebrews is either using a metaphor or some other kind of literary device, and not literally claiming that Melchizedek was pre-existent (which is my guess), or Melchizedek was a pre-incarnate appearance of a person of the Godhood (most likely the Son). But in any case there is no other beside God who is pre-existent.

  5. #214
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Of course it is. The portion of John 17 that I cited shows that Jesus claimed shared glory with the Father on account of existing with the Father before creation, and no one except God deserves that kind of glory. Jesus is most definitely excluding Himself from those who are not the only true God.






    I already answered this by referring to the ancient Jewish marriage customs and you haven't dealt with it. Stop repeating your claim until you've dealt with that.



    Jesus didn't simply pre-exist, Philippians tells us He pre-existed in the form of God, and Jesus tells us in John 17 that He shared in the Father's glory as God. And any thing that pre-exists creation must necessarily be divine, since God was the only one existing before creation, so anyone/anything existing beside God before creation must be one with God, and of the same essence.

    The writer of Hebrews is either using a metaphor or some other kind of literary device, and not literally claiming that Melchizedek was pre-existent (which is my guess), or Melchizedek was a pre-incarnate appearance of a person of the Godhood (most likely the Son). But in any case there is no other beside God who is pre-existent.
    Let me please correct you based on verses from Bible;

    1. all your assumptions are baseless and refuted by Jesus who described in simple crystal clear words that the Father as "THE ONLY TRUE GOD" in John 17:1-3. Therefore, Jesus being god is like other men in the Bible who are Gods as per Psalm 82:6; but "THE ONLY TRUE GOD" is the Father.

    2. having glory does not make Jesus God according to the Bible. What makes one God is if you fulfil certain qualities of God. For example, God is one. If God is one + the Father is God in John 17:1-3+ Jesus sat with God the Father on his throne in Rev 3:21, then Jesus cannot be God or otherwise we have two gods the Father and Jesus.

    3. Saying "I already answered this by referring to the ancient Jewish marriage customs and you haven't dealt with it" is not supported in Matthew 24 and as I said earlier, when Jesus said "no one knows of the day and that hour not even the angels in heaven but ONLY THE FATHER" in Mathew 24:36 means as Jesus said "ONLY THE FATHER" knows that hour excluding the HOLY SPIRIT.

    4. You saying "Jesus didn't simply pre-exist, Philippians tells us He pre-existed in the form of God" means there were two Gods because John 1:1-2 says "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning"

    5. You claiming "The writer of Hebrews is either using a metaphor or some other kind of literary device, and not literally claiming that Melchizedek was pre-existent (which is my guess), or Melchizedek was a pre-incarnate appearance of a person of the Godhood (most likely the Son). But in any case there is no other beside God who is pre-existent" is a guess by you, as you wrote. Please stick to the text.

    6. You claiming "Jesus didn't simply pre-exist, Philippians tells us He pre-existed in the form of God, and Jesus tells us in John 17 that He shared in the Father's glory as God. And any thing that pre-exists creation must necessarily be divine, since God was the only one existing before creation, so anyone/anything existing beside God before creation must be one with God, and of the same essence" is not true because others pre-existing before the creation like Melchizedek who was seen by Abraham in Gen 14 and was not likely Jesus as you claimed because Hebrews 7:3 describes Melchizedek as "like the Son" so there are two distinct beings.

  6. #215
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Same Hakeem,

    Hebrews 1:3, ". . . Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; . . ."

    John 1:9-10, ". . . the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. . . ."

    1 Timothy 2:5-6, ". . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. . . ."

    John 14:6, ". . . Jesus saith . . . , I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. . . ."

    Same Hakeem, you may not be able to believe these New Testament teachings, but do you not understand and comprehend their claims?

    There is only God and there is none other. Jesus as His Anointed One is the sole access for creation to God. And God Himself makes this so. What can you do about it? Fight against God? Denying truth does not make what is actually true false.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #216
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Same Hakeem,

    Hebrews 1:3, ". . . Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; . . ."

    John 1:9-10, ". . . the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. . . ."

    1 Timothy 2:5-6, ". . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. . . ."

    John 14:6, ". . . Jesus saith . . . , I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. . . ."

    Same Hakeem, you may not be able to believe these New Testament teachings, but do you not understand and comprehend their claims?

    There is only God and there is none other. Jesus as His Anointed One is the sole access for creation to God. And God Himself makes this so. What can you do about it? Fight against God? Denying truth does not make what is actually true false.
    Based on you above writing, we both agree that God is one God and according to Jesus himself, this "only true God" is THE FATHER in John 17-1-3.

    I pray all are safe.

  8. #217
    tWebber
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    Thats right, Christian3. Likewise oryhodox Muslims also believe their Koran has two natures.

    1) An eternal, divine one as the Word of Allah, co-existing with him, eternal and uncreated on the "mother of the book"in sura 13/39,

    2) it also has a finite, temporal nature in its printed form as a book, bound with pages in ink, paper, thread etc. Or in its recited form when it is chanted, read or recited by someone.

    The Koran's temporal and finite entity and form is NOT divine or eternal. It was created by a printer/publisher some time ago.

    If someone lights it up with a candle or matchstick the Koran will be destroyed, reduced to ashes & can be flushed down the toilet.

    When a muslim recites the koran who suddenly has a cough, or sore throat, the koranic reciting will become defective too!

    Its divine quality has been corrupted, compromised and eliminated.

    Or has it?

    Thats why the koran also has two natures in orthodox islam doctrinally.




    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    The author of the Qur'an never heard of the incarnation; otherwise, he would never have said Jesus couldn't be God because He had to eat food.

    Jesus is one person with two natures, one human and one divine; as a human of course Jesus had to eat food.

  9. #218
    tWebber
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    Dear Dan,

    If the Father is the "ONLY TRUE GOD" in John 17-1-3, how can Jesus be with God in John 1:1-2 if Jesus is God?

  10. #219
    tWebber
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    They absolutely CAN, hakeem. In the Holy Trinity of the Godhead. It is three persons in One Monotheistic God. Not 3 gods in polytheistic multi-gods!

    You cannot wrap your head around this fact because you DON'T WANT to come to terms with this reality.

    That doesn't make the trinity into "three gods" in any way.




    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Dear Dan,

    If the Father is the "ONLY TRUE GOD" in John 17-1-3, how can Jesus be with God in John 1:1-2 if Jesus is God?

  11. Amen Chrawnus, Christian3 amen'd this post.
  12. #220
    tWebber
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    Hakeem & siam...pay close attention y'all! :-

    In BOTH the OT and the NT, the Torah and Jesus Christ cites the Shema that highlights the Only ONE true God. So, it was not only just Jesus Christ / Isa al-Masih that proclaimed a unified Godhead (ie., the Holy TRINITY)

    "Sh'ma Yis-ra-eil, A-do-nai E-lo-hei-nu, A-do-nai E-CHAD."

    Found in both Deuteronomy 6:4 and Mark 12: 29

    " Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is One "

    God the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, "ECHAD" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.


    ECHAD UNIFIED ONE HEN
    Gen 2:24 two become one

    Man + Woman Matt 19:5 & 6. "the TWO shall become ONE [ECHAD]

    Deut 6:4 God is One - "ECHAD" - A UNITY of Plurality.

    Father + Son + Spirit Mk 12:29 ONE.

    The Hebrew word "Echad" denotes a Unity of plurality. Like its USE (Echad) in Genesis 2 v 24 - God said "they shall become ONE [echad] flesh" Who is "they" here? It refers to the Man and the Woman, his wife - TWO persons.

    The TWO, separate persons, become ONE - Echad - flesh.

    So, ONE here, is not strictly any unity of singularity - like what the unitarians and muslims like to claim. It is indeed A UNITY - BUT of a Plurality...that is TWO IN ONE - as in Genesis 2 : 24 and in the Shema of Deuteronomy 6: 4!

    The shema never uses the term for "unity of singularity" which is not Echad but YACHID - a unitary singular.

    The most important verse Jews memorized in the Bible was Deut 6:4: "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" There are a few words in Hebrew that the Holy Spirit could have used a word that has one exclusive meaning: the numeric, solitary oneness of God ("yachid")...BUT that was NOT THE WORD USED.

    This is most troubling Anti-Trinitarians since the word yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, is NEVER USED in reference to God. Got that siam and hakeem?!?

    The muslim "tawhid" can be understood as "solitary oneness" (so-called 'pure monotheism' but which Sunni, orthodox islam also never had) but that WAS NEVER TAUGHT THOUSANDS OF YEARS Before the arrival of Islam and Muhamed, their so-called 'prophet'!

    Elohim vs. El

    Elohim is plura ie "gods". While "El" is singular "god".

    The God of the Bible (YHWH) is referred to in the PLURAL"Elohim" thousands of times. Never in a unitary singular form.

    Actually, the fact that God is called ʾElohim (translated as “God” when referring to the Lord) is not unusual at all to the Lord Jesus Christ.

    He Himself used it in Matthew 27:46, calling out to His Heavenly Father "Eloi, Eloi lama sabakhtani"

    He used the Aramaic form of the Hebrew Elohim, "Eloi", showing and proving that Jesus Himself practised declaring the plural form of YHWH and never the singular (El or yachid).

    The Trinitarians do not have a problem when it comes to the original Hebrew (and even Greek) Texts. Its the muslims, unitarians and anti-trinitarians that have a big problem to prove their case for a "unitary in singularity" Godhead!

    Go here to read the research for yourselves:-

    https://bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity





    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    They absolutely CAN, hakeem. In the Holy Trinity of the Godhead. It is three persons in One Monotheistic God. Not 3 gods in polytheistic multi-gods!

    You cannot wrap your head around this fact because you DON'T WANT to come to terms with this reality.

    That doesn't make the trinity into "three gods" in any way.

  13. Amen Christian3 amen'd this post.

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