Originally posted by Same Hakeem
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World Religions is a theist only type place, but that does not exclude certain religionists who practice non-theistic faiths ala Buddhism. If you are not sure, ask a moderator.
This is not a place where we argue the existence / non-existence of God.
And as usual, the forum rules apply.
Forum Rules: Here
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Did Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?
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Last edited by tabibito; 06-06-2019, 07:53 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostThere should be clarifications here.
Matthew 24:36 says "of that day and hour no one knows ... but ONLY THE FATHER" therefore, neither the Holy Spirit nor the Son knows the hour and everything.
Trinity by definition teaches that Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit are co-equal. If so, the Holy Spirit should have known the hour but did not know it since it is limited to "ONLY THE FATHER" as per Jesus own words in Matthew 24:36.
Your comments show a lack of understanding of the Trinity. The Trinity states that there is ONE God, revealed in 3 distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are each 100% God but the Father is not the Son or Holy Spirit. He is a distinct person, which means he can have knowledge that the others do not. Since the Father is 100% God, it still means that God knows the hour.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostWhere did you get the idea that this teaching can be found in the Bible? Come to that, the teaching isn't even part of the apostles' creed.
If the Holy Spirit is God, then "God" the Holy Spirit must know everything according 1 John 3:20. However, Jesus limited the knowledge of that hour and day to "ONLY THE FATHER" in Matthew 24:36 and hence the Holy Spirit cannot be God if such knowledge is limited to "ONLY THE FATHER" as per Jesus own words in Matthew 24:36.
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostIf the Holy Spirit is God, then "God" the Holy Spirit must know everything according 1 John 3:20. However, Jesus limited the knowledge of that hour and day to "ONLY THE FATHER" in Matthew 24:36 and hence the Holy Spirit cannot be God if such knowledge is limited to "ONLY THE FATHER" as per Jesus own words in Matthew 24:36.
I don't have the book in my Kindle library, but an excerpt from the first chapter (where the above citation is from) is available at https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/unl...ten/1111902791 (scroll down until you see a tab that says read an excerpt.)
This didn't mean that the groom didn't know when He would return for his bride, but simply that he left that decision for his father to make. In the same way, Jesus isn't saying that He or the Holy Spirit doesn't know the hour and day of when he will return, He's simply saying that He and the Spirit has left the decision of when the return will happen up to the Father. Viewed in this light the text doesn't necessarily preclude Jesus and the Spirit from knowing "the hour and day", any more than the phrase "It's raining cats and dogs" implies that cats and dogs are literally falling out of the sky.Last edited by JonathanL; 06-06-2019, 06:11 PM.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostThis passage can be properly understood if you know the context behind the scripted response "only (the/my) father knows", which was something the groom typically responded with if someone asked him when he would return to take his bride to the place that he had prepared for her in his father's house:
I don't have the book in my Kindle library, but an excerpt from the first chapter (where the above citation is from) is available at https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/unl...ten/1111902791 (scroll down until you see a tab that says read an excerpt.)
This didn't mean that the groom didn't know when He would return for his bride, but simply that he left that decision for his father to make. In the same way, Jesus isn't saying that He or the Holy Spirit doesn't know the hour and day of when he will return, He's simply saying that He and the Spirit has left the decision of when the return will happen up to the Father. Viewed in this light the text doesn't necessarily preclude Jesus and the Spirit from knowing "the hour and day", any more than the phrase "It's raining cats and dogs" implies that cats and dogs are literally falling out of the sky.
μόνος (monos)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3441: Only, solitary, desolate. Probably from meno; remaining, i.e. Sole or single; by implication, mere.
https://biblehub.com/parallel/matthew/24-36.htm
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostI am quoting the following in relation to the word "only" said by Jesus in Matthew 24:36:
μόνος (monos)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3441: Only, solitary, desolate. Probably from meno; remaining, i.e. Sole or single; by implication, mere.
https://biblehub.com/parallel/matthew/24-36.htm
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostYou can quote Strong's Greek definitions at me until the cows come home, unless you actually know enough Koine Greek yourself that you can argue why the context shows that the interpretation I gave above is invalid your objection based on dictionary definitions is worthless.Last edited by Same Hakeem; 06-08-2019, 02:39 PM.
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostThe Greek word of "only" in Matthew means only as Strong's Greek. Had it meant something else, surely Jesus would not have used "only" in Matthew 24:36.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostBut the word "only" doesn't appear by itself in the text and is part of a larger context. That context is Jesus using imagery of a wedding to explain how it would be when He returned, and a specific phrase "Only the/my Father knows", which was a set phrase that was meant to signify that the groom had left the decision for when he would return to get his bride to his Father. By itself it did not necessarily mean that the son/groom didn't know the exact time that the father had decided.
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostSo far, I am using "ONLY THE FATHER" uttered by Jesus in Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 to show the Holy Spirit is not God.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSo far, you are using your interpretation of the significance of a single verse to negate everything the Bible has to say about the identity of the Holy Spirit and God.
We agree that "the Messiah sits at the right hand of God" as in Colossians 3:1 and there is ONE GOD, so Jesus cannot be God because if Jesus is God in this instance, there must be more than one God if "God" Jesus sits at the right hand of God.
Colossians 3:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Carnality but Christ
3 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
1 Corinthians 8:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.Last edited by Same Hakeem; 06-09-2019, 02:37 PM.
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostThere are many.
We agree that "the Messiah sits at the right hand of God" as in Colossians 3:1 and there is ONE GOD, so Jesus cannot be God because if Jesus is God, there must be more than one God if "God" Jesus sits at the right hand of God.
Colossians 3:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Carnality but Christ
3 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
1 Corinthians 8:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Same HakeemThanks but not scriptures-based-doctrine.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe scriptures both declare that God is triune, and show how that condition has its outworking. Some elements of the conventional doctrine cannot be supported by scripture - that is true. But the fact of the trinity is more than adequately demonstrated by scripture.
John 17:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Prays for Himself
17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He [a]should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
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