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Did Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    But John 10:29 was originally written in Koine Greek, not English, so the limitations of the English word "all" isn't really relevant here.

    But even if we go only by the English translation it doesn't pose any problems, because not even in English must the word "all" necessarily imply "everyone/everything without exception", even when there are no qualifiers to the word.

    And even if it did mean "everyone without exception" in this particular verse it still wouldn't pose any problems because it would fit quite naturally with the doctrine of the procession of the Holy Spirit.



    When the Bible says Christ is seated at the right hand of God the main point is not that Jesus is literally sitting on the right side of God, but that Jesus is sharing in God's majesty, glory and dominion.

    And you're misunderstanding what Christians mean when we say Christ is God, or the Father is God, or the Spirit is God. "God" here doesn't mean "God, the person", but "divine". So we're not saying that the Father, the Son (Christ) and the Spirit are all the same person, called God, but that they all share fully in the one single, undivided, divine essence.

    In Colossians 3:1 however, "God" is used to signify a person, in this case the person of the Father. Using the word "God" to signify the Father is something the NT writers frequently do in their writings, and doesn't pose any problem what so ever to the doctrine of the Trinity, so long as the doctrine is properly understood.
    Please let me correct you;

    1. In English, all means all and everyone without exception. Please refer to the below English dictionary
    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/all

    2. If the Father is greater than all then I do not see how " it would fit quite naturally with the doctrine of the procession of the Holy Spirit"

    3. I want to learn how God is ONE and God (Jesus) can be with God when Jesus is seated at the right hand of God in Colossians 3:1

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
      I am here to learn how God is ONE and God (Jesus) be with God when Jesus is seated at the right hand of God in Colossians 3:1. That's two to me.
      Sure you are.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
        Please let me correct you;

        1. In English, all means all and everyone without exception. Please refer to the below English dictionary
        https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/all
        One teensie weensie widdle problem with that, SH --- the Bible wasn't written in English.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          One teensie weensie widdle problem with that, SH --- the Bible wasn't written in English.
          Please refer to the below link of John 10:29 in Greek to read that all means all.

          https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/10-29.htm

          Comment


          • #50
            The Cambridge Dictionary doesn't deal with colloquial usages in the definition, but it does give more than one in the example sentences supplied -
            Only a few explicitly state the position though, as
            When cooking the sauce, don't forget that all-important (= most or very important) ingredient
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
              Please refer to the below link of John 10:29 in Greek to read that all means all.

              https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/10-29.htm
              Please refer to the very next verse in that same passage. Something we refer to as "context".

              "I and the Father are one.”

              The Jews understood that's what He said, because they picked up stones to throw at him for claiming to be God.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                Please let me correct you;

                1. In English, all means all and everyone without exception. Please refer to the below English dictionary
                https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/all
                You have to look at the context to determine which "all" Jesus is speaking of in John 10:29. If we presuppose for the sake of the argument that the doctrine of the Trinity is false, then "all" must necessarily mean at most "all created beings". And if that is the correct understanding of the verse, then it poses no problem what so ever for the teaching that the Spirit is God, because the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that the Spirit is an uncreated being, not a created being.

                And if the word "all" does mean "everyone/everything without exception, created as well as uncreated beings", then it doesn't pose any problems either, because it could be taken to mean that the Spirit is subordinate to the Father in role, or function, not in essence.

                Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                2. If the Father is greater than all then I do not see how " it would fit quite naturally with the doctrine of the procession of the Holy Spirit"
                The doctrine of the procession of the Holy Spirit teaches that the Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son (or if you belong to the Eastern tradition, only the Father). Since the Father is divine, anyone who proceeds from Him shares in the divine essence, and since the Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father it follows that he has shared in the divine essence from eternity.

                Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                3. I want to learn how God is ONE and God (Jesus) can be with God when Jesus is seated at the right hand of God in Colossians 3:1

                My previous post already explained that. The word "God" in "Jesus is God", and "Christ is seated at the right hand of God" does not mean the same things.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Please refer to the very next verse in that same passage. Something we refer to as "context".

                  "I and the Father are one.”

                  The Jews understood that's what He said, because they picked up stones to throw at him for claiming to be God.
                  But Jesus went on and clarified their wrong understanding as follows;

                  "34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came"

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Moderated By: Bill the Cat

                    Moving to Comp Rel with OP approval.

                    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                      But Jesus went on and clarified their wrong understanding as follows;

                      "34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came"
                      But the Jews didn't just say, "Oh, thanks - that explains it all!" They continued, after that, to try to arrest Him.

                      That's why you can't just pick and choose verses, but have to look at that whole passage IN CONTEXT, where he continues.... "If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

                      And how did they respond? "Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands".

                      Earlier He had said "before Abraham was born, I am!". Do you know who "I am" is in the Bible?
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        But the Jews didn't just say, "Oh, thanks - that explains it all!" They continued, after that, to try to arrest Him.

                        That's why you can't just pick and choose verses, but have to look at that whole passage IN CONTEXT, where he continues.... "If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

                        And how did they respond? "Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands".

                        Earlier He had said "before Abraham was born, I am!". Do you know who "I am" is in the Bible?
                        One problem I have with that rendering is that you make Jesus speak Pidgin English.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                          Earlier He had said "before Abraham was born, I am!". Do you know who "I am" is in the Bible?
                          Not "ego eimi." The Koine Greek translation of YHVH is "ο ων (pronounced: ho own)"
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Georg Kaplin View Post
                            One problem I have with that rendering is that you make Jesus speak Pidgin English.
                            Blame it on the ESV.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Blame it on the ESV.
                              You know, if you say "I am" is a name or title, you rob that sentence of its main subject and verb? The first clause is a dependent temporal adverbial clause that modifies the verb ειμι. Calling εγω ειμι a title or name just cannot be defended.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Georg Kaplin View Post
                                You know, if you say "I am" is a name or title, you rob that sentence of its main subject and verb? The first clause is a dependent temporal adverbial clause that modifies the verb ειμι. Calling εγω ειμι a title or name just cannot be defended.
                                I will leave you guys to the work of responding to the who pretends to be here to learn. God Bless!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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