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Did Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?

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  • Same Hakeem, I'm still waiting for you to teach me the Trinity.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
      Why do you keep repeating yourself when your posts have been already answered? If you can't remember, then start taking notes.
      His bible only has two verses.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
        Claiming "the HOLY SPIRIT IS CLEARLY GOD and DIVINE according to Jesus' authority" is not true because according to your reasoning, the angels that are spirits in Hebrews 1:7 & 14, are GODS.

        The Bible in 1 John 2:30 says "God knows everything" whereas Jesus limited the knowledge of his second coming to "ONLY THE FATHER" in Matthew 24:36 therefore excluding the Holy Spirit.
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        1 John 3:20 Has a context. All what things?

        1 John 3:19-21, ". . . And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. . . ."

        Genuine believers know they have God's complete forgiveness (1 Iohn 5:10-13), those who do not (Romans 8:9) remain self condemned (Matthew 12:36).
        None but yourself can make you hear what you do not want to hear. And you cannot understand a thing you refuse to hear.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • Your claim is incorrect & untrue again, ya hakeem. Genesis 1:1-2 declares the Spirit of God was already pre-existent before the creation of the world. No angel was mentioned here, and was NOT PRESENT, otherwise Genesis 1 would say so.

          Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed that “GOD is SPIRIT”. And breathed the Holy Spirit to His disciples, no angel involved at all. So, stop mis-quoting the Christian Scriptures for your daft, silly and flawed misinterpretations. You don’t understand BOTH the Bible AND the Trinity at all.

          “The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the SPIRIT OF GOD was hovering over the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:2

          “God is SPIRIT, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24

          “Jesus breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the HOLY SPIRIT’.” John 20:22

          All three verses above have NO reference to any angel at all. But exclusively to the Holy Spirit. You have no understanding at all about GOD, the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ or the angels, and you are really unqualified to make any intelligent feedback or comments about them!

          You are a real & desperate joke, ya hakeem!



          Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
          Claiming "the HOLY SPIRIT IS CLEARLY GOD and DIVINE according to Jesus' authority" is not true because according to your reasoning, the angels that are spirits in Hebrews 1:7 & 14, are GODS.

          The Bible in 1 John 2:30 says "God knows everything" whereas Jesus limited the knowledge of his second coming to "ONLY THE FATHER" in Matthew 24:36 therefore excluding the Holy Spirit.

          Comment


          • Hakeem, WHAT PART of "GOD IS SPIRIT" John 4:25 and "And the SPIRIT OF GOD was hovering over the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:2

            Don't you understand? Seriously.


            Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
            Your claim is incorrect & untrue again, ya hakeem. Genesis 1:1-2 declares the Spirit of God was already pre-existent before the creation of the world. No angel was mentioned here, and was NOT PRESENT, otherwise Genesis 1 would say so.

            Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed that “GOD is SPIRIT”. And breathed the Holy Spirit to His disciples, no angel involved at all. So, stop mis-quoting the Christian Scriptures for your daft, silly and flawed misinterpretations. You don’t understand BOTH the Bible AND the Trinity at all.

            “The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the SPIRIT OF GOD was hovering over the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:2

            “God is SPIRIT, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24

            “Jesus breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the HOLY SPIRIT’.” John 20:22

            All three verses above have NO reference to any angel at all. But exclusively to the Holy Spirit. You have no understanding at all about GOD, the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ or the angels, and you are really unqualified to make any intelligent feedback or comments about them!

            You are a real & desperate joke, ya hakeem!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
              Hakeem, WHAT PART of "GOD IS SPIRIT" John 4:25 and "And the SPIRIT OF GOD was hovering over the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:2

              Don't you understand? Seriously.
              Yes God is Spirit and also "God knows everything" in 1 John 3:20 however the Holy Spirit does not know the second coming of Jesus when Jesus made limited the knowledge of his second coming to " ONLY The FATHER" in Matthew 24:36 "No man knows that hour and that day not even the angels in heaven but ONLY THE FATHER".

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                Did Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?
                A pious and observant Jew would hardly preach of polytheistic divinities. The first two commandments forbid such ideas.

                The concept of God as Trinity, a threefold unity, is a distinctive mark of the church's patristic theological culture and began to emerge in the second century, and after that it grew quite rapidly. However, it was not fully and formally [doctrinally] articulated until the Arian controversy of the fourth century that forced theologians to make a definitive statement of belief in the manner of Trinitarian relations and the character (particularly the status) of the persons of the Trinity. Of course, even then, not everyone agreed.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  A pious and observant Jew would hardly preach of polytheistic divinities. The first two commandments forbid such ideas.

                  The concept of God as Trinity, a threefold unity, is a distinctive mark of the church's patristic theological culture and began to emerge in the second century, and after that it grew quite rapidly. However, it was not fully and formally [doctrinally] articulated until the Arian controversy of the fourth century that forced theologians to make a definitive statement of belief in the manner of Trinitarian relations and the character (particularly the status) of the persons of the Trinity. Of course, even then, not everyone agreed.
                  The pious and observant Jew could hold to the multiple persons in the Godhead. This was a topic in discussion in the early centuries of this era. You can checkout Alan Segal's book "Two Powers in Heaven." Some reviews talk of this as a Jewish heresy but it may be interesting to see what Jewish resources had interest in pointing out the Hebrew passages where the Lord spoke to the Lord.

                  The Trinitarian derives first from the biblical emphasis on monotheism and then biblical record of the multiple persons of the single God. It was not a new concept of later centuries. The doctrine was only a clarification to point out heretical conceptions.
                  Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-11-2020, 07:14 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                    The pious and observant Jew could hold to the multiple persons in the Godhead.
                    On what evidence?

                    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                    This was a topic in discussion in the early centuries of this era.
                    Given the fluidity of fledgling Christianity in its first 250 years [i.e. 50 - 300 CE] all sorts of ideas and beliefs were in wide circulation.

                    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                    You can checkout Alan Segal's book "Two Powers in Heaven."
                    Have you read it?
                    Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 06-11-2020, 07:28 PM.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • I suppose I could leave the interpretation of the piety decision to those who decide these matters within various Jewish groups. But the observations stem from interesting passages in the early scriptures. From a Christian perspective, the pious and observant Christian is one who adheres to the testimony of scripture.


                      There were varying ideas of the multiple persons among Jews and in early Christianity (and still are today, with recognition of some as too divergent from the scriptures), but the understanding of the Trinity is derived from the scriptues of the first century.

                      As to Segal's book, I just got a copy of it today -- the 1977 version.
                      Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-11-2020, 07:54 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                        I suppose I could leave the interpretation of the piety decision to those who decide these matters within various Jewish groups. But the observations stem from interesting passages in the early scriptures. From a Christian perspective, the pious and observant Christian is one who adheres to the testimony of scripture.
                        The problem there being that no pious and observant Christian today has any original MSS for "the testimony of scripture".

                        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                        There were varying ideas of the multiple persons among Jews and in early Christianity (and still are today, with recognition of some as too divergent from the scriptures),
                        Would you care to provide some examples?

                        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                        but the understanding of the Trinity is derived from the scriptues of the first century.
                        No it isn't. It is in the work of Theophilus of Antioch [died c:183/185 CE] that the term Triad (trias) makes it theological debut.

                        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                        As to Segal's book, I just got a copy of it today -- the 1977 version.
                        1977 was the year of its publication.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          The problem there being that no pious and observant Christian today has any original MSS for "the testimony of scripture".

                          Would you care to provide some examples?

                          No it isn't. It is in the work of Theophilus of Antioch [died c:183/185 CE] that the term Triad (trias) makes it theological debut.

                          1977 was the year of its publication.
                          It sounds like you are a Jewish apologist. It appears that you have studied things well. Hopefully you will come to know the Messiah too.

                          The testimony of scripture shows no indications of changes that affect any Christian doctrines. So I'm not sure what you are challenging here. I know this point has been atested to by my scholars on the NT; I'm not sure how it extends to the older scriptures.

                          In asking to provide examples, are you asking this in order to contest the passages that Segal points out (concerning the OT)?

                          I'm not planning on going through the NT examples. That is not my present interest.

                          I'm not sure why you say that the awareness of the deity of Christ began with Theophilus of Antioch. He is just the one who introduced the term that helped describe the Godhead.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                            It sounds like you are a Jewish apologist. It appears that you have studied things well.
                            I fail to recognise that pointing out a generally accepted truth in some way makes one an "apologist" for anything.

                            If one assumes that a historical figure existed, and considering the socio-political situation in Judaea and Galilee at the the time such a figure would not be unknown [we know that there were various Messiahs both before and after Jesus of Nazareth]; then that figure would have been an observant Jew. That a particular Jew was preaching of the End Times to his fellow Jews and urging them to repent, is again, a conceivable possibility considering the beliefs among many Jews at the time.

                            However, the various figures we are presented with in the four canonical gospels are later constructs that contain a Christian gloss. The character of Jesus we find in John's gospel is positively "unearthly" and bears no resemblance to the man of God we get brief glimpses of in Mark's account.

                            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                            The testimony of scripture shows no indications of changes that affect any Christian doctrines.
                            Hardly surprising, given that from the fourth century the Christian church was entirely responsible for producing the texts.

                            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                            So I'm not sure what you are challenging here.
                            I did not consider that I was "challenging" anything. I was, once again, merely pointing out a historical fact. No original MSS of any NT documents exist.

                            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                            In asking to provide examples, are you asking this in order to contest the passages that Segal points out (concerning the OT)?
                            You have previously informed me that you have just received your copy of his work but did not answer my question “Have you read it?”

                            If you have not read Segal’s work, then your comment concerning what he points out in various passages is extremely mystifying. If you have read his work then to what precise passages are you referring?

                            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                            I'm not planning on going through the NT examples. That is not my present interest.
                            You would struggle to find any direct references put into the mouth of Jesus.

                            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                            I'm not sure why you say that the awareness of the deity of Christ began with Theophilus of Antioch.
                            Given that I never wrote that it did, I am unsurprised by your confusion.

                            Both Eusebius of Caesarea and Jerome refer to Theophilus' apology To Autolycus. Theophilus writes of a time when the Logos of God was immanent but undifferentiated. He then regards the Logos as being extrapolated for the purpose of cosmic creation, through the medium of holy wisdom. Theophilus is therefore an early exponent of Trinitarian theology as a manner of considering the “economy” [i.e. a term that appears in late Pauline literature to signify an understanding of the divine plan for the redemption of the cosmos]of the divine salvation of the world. It is in his works that the word Triad [trias] makes its theological debut.
                            Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 06-12-2020, 07:16 AM.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              A pious and observant Jew would hardly preach of polytheistic divinities. The first two commandments forbid such ideas.

                              The concept of God as Trinity, a threefold unity, is a distinctive mark of the church's patristic theological culture and began to emerge in the second century, and after that it grew quite rapidly. However, it was not fully and formally [doctrinally] articulated until the Arian controversy of the fourth century that forced theologians to make a definitive statement of belief in the manner of Trinitarian relations and the character (particularly the status) of the persons of the Trinity. Of course, even then, not everyone agreed.
                              The concept of the Trinity is biblical.

                              https://www.monergism.com/topics/trinity

                              https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm...ty/trinity.cfm


                              There are trinity quotes before the Arian controversy.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                                The concept of the Trinity is biblical.

                                https://www.monergism.com/topics/trinity

                                https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm...ty/trinity.cfm


                                There are trinity quotes before the Arian controversy.
                                That is your opinion based on your subjective interpretation of periphrastic language found in the four canonical gospels as well as the torturing of various Hebrew bible texts to fit into a much later Christian construct.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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