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Did Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I have heard many objections to the doctrine of the Trinity but this one is up there among the weirdest. You clearly have no idea what the Trinity teaches if you think John 16:13 disproves the Trinity.
    The Holy Spirit is not God because the Holy Spirit does not speak from himself and speaks what he hears according to Jesus Christ in John 16:13.God does speak from himself and also does not speak what he hears.
    Last edited by Same Hakeem; 05-03-2019, 10:15 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
      The Holy Spirit is not God because the Holy Spirit does not speak from himself and speaks what he hears according to Jesus Christ in John 16:13. God does speak from himself. God does speak from himself and does not speak what he hears.
      Simply repeating your argument isn't going to make it stronger.

      You're saying that God doesn't speak from anyone but Himself, but when you're using that language like that all you're doing is begging the question in favor of a unipersonal view of God. If the teaching of the Trinity is true your objection is meaningless, because then one Person (The Spirit) in the Trinity can speak what He hears from the other Persons (the Father and Son) in the Trinity and He is still speaking from God.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
        The Holy Spirit is not God because the Holy Spirit does not speak from himself and speaks what he hears according to Jesus Christ in John 16:13.God does speak from himself and also does not speak what he hears.
        Who is the Holy Spirit?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          Simply repeating your argument isn't going to make it stronger.

          You're saying that God doesn't speak from anyone but Himself, but when you're using that language like that all you're doing is begging the question in favor of a unipersonal view of God. If the teaching of the Trinity is true your objection is meaningless, because then one Person (The Spirit) in the Trinity can speak what He hears from the other Persons (the Father and Son) in the Trinity and He is still speaking from God.
          I cannot imagine God does not speak from himself and speaks what he hears.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
            Did Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?
            Scripture Verse: John 14

            15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

            © Copyright Original Source



            The reason you have to ask such a dumb question, is because you cannot accept the Truth of the Holy Spirit, because you don't know Him. He does not live in you.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Scripture Verse: John 14

              15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

              © Copyright Original Source



              The reason you have to ask such a dumb question, is because you cannot accept the Truth of the Holy Spirit, because you don't know Him. He does not live in you.
              please explain how the Holy Spirit can be 100% God ,but does not speak on his own authority and has to be told what to speak?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                please explain how the Holy Spirit can be 100% God ,but does not speak on his own authority and has to be told what to speak?
                So, all I need to do is show you one instance of the Holy Spirit speaking on his own? EasyHakeemy....

                Scripture Verse: Acts 13:2


                As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work which I have called them (Acts 13:2).

                © Copyright Original Source

                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                  please explain how the Holy Spirit can be 100% God ,but does not speak on his own authority and has to be told what to speak?
                  Where in the Bible does it say that the Spirit has to be told what to speak? It only says that the Spirit doesn't speak on His own authority, not that He can't speak on His own authority.

                  The answer to your question, if it were based on a legitimate reading of the biblical text, would be the teaching of the Eternal Procession of the Spirit.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                    Where in the Bible does it say that the Spirit has to be told what to speak? It only says that the Spirit doesn't speak on His own authority, not that He can't speak on His own authority.

                    The answer to your question, if it were based on a legitimate reading of the biblical text, would be the teaching of the Eternal Procession of the Spirit.
                    I really have to wonder if there's maybe a language barrier or something - the conclusions to which he frequently jumps are very often quite puzzling.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I really have to wonder if there's maybe a language barrier or something - the conclusions to which he frequently jumps are very often quite puzzling.
                      I am betting he is reading some really bad muslim apologetic site and then bringing those arguments over here.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        Where in the Bible does it say that the Spirit has to be told what to speak? It only says that the Spirit doesn't speak on His own authority, not that He can't speak on His own authority.

                        The answer to your question, if it were based on a legitimate reading of the biblical text, would be the teaching of the Eternal Procession of the Spirit.
                        The answer is found in John 16:13 which says "He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears"

                        In this regard, Jesus saying in Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" proves the Holy Spirit did not know the hour because Jesus said it is ONLY the Father that knows only the hour and hence the Holy Spirit is not God.
                        Last edited by Same Hakeem; 05-10-2019, 02:41 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                          The answer is found in John 16:13 which says "He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears"

                          In this regard, Jesus saying in Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" proves the Holy Spirit did not know the hour because Jesus said it is ONLY the Father that knows only the hour and hence the Holy Spirit is not God.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                            The answer is found in John 16:13 which says "He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears"
                            That still does not say that he can't speak on His own authority, only that He doesn't speak on his own authority.

                            Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                            In this regard, Jesus saying in Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" proves the Holy Spirit did not know the hour because Jesus said it is ONLY the Father that knows only the hour and hence the Holy Spirit is not God.
                            Here's an interesting perspective on this verse, that takes into the cultural context of ancient Jewish society, and argues that Jesus here is not literally claiming that the Father is the only one Who knows the hour of the Sons return, but is using imagery from ancient Jewish wedding customs:

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                              The answer is found in John 16:13 which says "He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears"
                              This is in submission to the Father, as others have said, this does not mean the Holy Spirit cannot speak on his own.

                              In this regard, Jesus saying in Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" proves the Holy Spirit did not know the hour because Jesus said it is ONLY the Father that knows only the hour and hence the Holy Spirit is not God.
                              And this also is submission to the Father, where does it say that each person of the Godhead at all times must know everything?

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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                              • #30
                                Saying "That still does not say that he can't speak on His own authority, only that He doesn't speak on his own authority" is not true because ,for example, God does not lie and hence God cannot lie.

                                Saying " Jesus here is not literally claiming that the Father is the only one Who knows the hour of the Sons return, but is using imagery from ancient Jewish wedding customs" is not true because if Jesus wanted to say the Holy Spirit knows the hour, Jesus would not have said "but the Father ONLY" in Matthew 24:36.

                                The Trinity is questioned in light of the fact that Jesus said in Revelation 3:21 "I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne" and hence Jesus cannot be God because had Jesus been God, he would not have sat with God the Father; God (Christ if so) cannot be sitting with God the Father.

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