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Did Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?

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  • #91
    Hakeem is only being blatantly hypocritical by persistently making these thoughtless demands. Not only are they unreasonable and brainless, they dismantle the first islamic creed of the "five pillars of islam", otherwise known as the kalimah shahadah, or the "confession of faith" for muslims.

    The kalimah shahadah claims thusly: 'I bear witness there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness that muhamed is the apostle (prophet) of Allah.' There are two parts to it. (1) No god but Allah and (2) Muhamad is his prophet.

    I sincerely like hakeem or any other knowledgeable muslim to show me a single verse in the Koran in which those two parts are found in ONE sentence...

    But there is really none!

    The islamic creed of the kalimah shahadah cannot be found im the Quran as-is.

    It was humanly combined by man - not by God or Allah, & made into a belief system and millions follow it..blindly? Despite the FACT that this creed is never enshrined in the Quran as it is.

    That's how ludicrous hakeem's thoughtless demand is upon Christians.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      That verse does require consideration, but not in the way you think. The Bible provides some difficulties for some points of Trinitarian doctrine (in its standard iteration), but the core - that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; that they are different persons, and that there is only one God - is solidly based in scripture.

      The closest thing we have to a single sentence declaring the Trinity is in Isaiah. The name identifies the person - Isaiah identifies that child as the Trinity: in short you're basing your objection on a semantic quibble - it is making an argument not about issues but about words.

      Demanding a single sentence is not legitimate. In the New Testament, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each identified as God, and each is shown to have independence of action, will, and thought. The demand for a single sentence stating what has already been more than adequately demonstrated is a demand that an unreasonable requirement be met. The demand does not reflect any genuine attempt to resolve difficulties - those have already been resolved.
      Please bear with me as I have certain reservations;

      1. Your saying "In the New Testament, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each identified as God" is not agreed by Jesus own admission that the Father "the only true God" in John 17:3. Jesus goes further to prove that the Holy Spirit is not God by saying "of day and that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven nor the Son but only the Father" in Matthew 24:36. Had the Holy Spirit been God (as God the Father), Jesus would not limited the knowledge of the hour to "ONLY THE FATHER". What makes one God is if such one has the perfect attributes of God. For example, the Holy Spirit does not know every thing.

      2. The term "God" is given to men in the Bible as in Psalm 82:6. What makes one God is if such one has the attributes of God.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
        Please bear with me as I have certain reservations;

        1. Your saying "In the New Testament, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each identified as God" is not agreed by Jesus own admission that the Father "the only true God" in John 17:3. Jesus goes further to prove that the Holy Spirit is not God by saying "of day and that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven nor the Son but only the Father" in Matthew 24:36. Had the Holy Spirit been God (as God the Father), Jesus would not limited the knowledge of the hour to "ONLY THE FATHER". What makes one God is if such one has the perfect attributes of God. For example, the Holy Spirit does not know every thing.

        2. The term "God" is given to men in the Bible as in Psalm 82:6. What makes one God is if such one has the attributes of God.
        Point 1 has been dealt with before by others. To reiterate: These verse perhaps call into question certain elements of the conventional understanding of the Trinity - they do not call into question the essentials of the doctrine.
        Point 2 is valid, but not relevant to Christ or the Holy Spirit.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #94
          Hahahaha, what a joke.

          Even though those questions have already been fully answered by others, hakeem shows his infantilism by glossing over and ignoring them, pretending that the answers are not there. That is just so typical of many islamic propogandists and dawagandists.

          His behaviour amounts to stupidity, nothing more.

          He asks for forbearance at his questions but we can equally put forward questions to him and see how he runs away from the Quran's errors, contradictions and obvious inconsistencies. This is both childish, cowardly and hypocritical - and is normal for dawagandists, or brainwashed muslim propogandists who cannot think straight.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Point 1 has been dealt with before by others. To reiterate: These verse perhaps call into question certain elements of the conventional understanding of the Trinity - they do not call into question the essentials of the doctrine.
            Point 2 is valid, but not relevant to Christ or the Holy Spirit.
            I did not find their responses make sense. As I said, if Jesus said literally "only the Father" knows the hour, then the Holy Spirit cannot know the hour and hence cannot be God.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
              I did not find their responses make sense. As I said, if Jesus said literally "only the Father" knows the hour, then the Holy Spirit cannot know the hour and hence cannot be God.
              One member of the Trinity knows something that another does not. Why do you assume that such a circumstance implies that the one who does not know can't be God? What would make you the final arbiter of what God can do, or not do? The Holy Spirit does not know something that the Father knows - that does not change the fact that the Holy Spirit is stated to be God; it only demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is not the Father. If the Holy Spirit is God (as the scriptures claim), and does not meet your expectations of God - your expectations about God need adjustment.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                One member of the Trinity knows something that another does not. Why do you assume that such a circumstance implies that the one who does not know can't be God? What would make you the final arbiter of what God can do, or not do? The Holy Spirit does not know something that the Father knows - that does not change the fact that the Holy Spirit is stated to be God; it only demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is not the Father. If the Holy Spirit is God (as the scriptures claim), and does not meet your expectations of God - your expectations about God need adjustment.
                If Holy Spirit does not know the Hour, then the Holy Spirit be God because God knows everything as per 1 John 3:20.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                  If Holy Spirit does not know the Hour, then the Holy Spirit be God because God knows everything as per 1 John 3:20.
                  Maybe the Father hasn't decided the hour yet, Hakeem.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                    If Holy Spirit does not know the Hour, then the Holy Spirit be God because God knows everything as per 1 John 3:20.
                    If the Father knows something and Holy Spirit does not.
                    If the Holy Spirit knows something and the Father does not.
                    If Christ does something and the Holy Spirit does not.
                    If the Holy Spirit does something and the Father does not.

                    In each case, God knows something and does something. It does not require all three to do or to know for God to do or to know - it only needs one. It may be that your spirit knows things that you do not - that doesn't mean that your body is not you, and it certainly doesn't mean that you are three people. That is also pointed out in the Bible.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Maybe the Father hasn't decided the hour yet, Hakeem.
                      But Jesus said "of that day and that hour no one knows not even the angels in heaven nor the Son BUT ONLY THE FATHER" in Matthew 24:36.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        If the Father knows something and Holy Spirit does not.
                        If the Holy Spirit knows something and the Father does not.
                        If Christ does something and the Holy Spirit does not.
                        If the Holy Spirit does something and the Father does not.

                        In each case, God knows something and does something. It does not require all three to do or to know for God to do or to know - it only needs one. It may be that your spirit knows things that you do not - that doesn't mean that your body is not you, and it certainly doesn't mean that you are three people. That is also pointed out in the Bible.
                        God by definition knows all things (1 John 3:20 & Isaiah 46:10) and hence when "ONLY THE FATHER" knows that hour in Matthew 24:36, hence the Holy Spirit cannot be God.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                          But Jesus said "of that day and that hour no one knows not even the angels in heaven nor the Son BUT ONLY THE FATHER" in Matthew 24:36.
                          maybe because he hasn't decided at that time? It was just an idea.


                          Also at the time Jesus (the Son) had limited himself as a human being, and he probably does know now that he is back in Heaven.

                          Your comments show a lack of understanding of the Trinity. The Trinity states that there is ONE God, revealed in 3 distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are each 100% God but the Father is not the Son or Holy Spirit. He is a distinct person, which means he can have knowledge that the others do not. Since the Father is 100% God, it still means that God knows the hour.
                          Last edited by Sparko; 06-05-2019, 10:04 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                            God by definition knows all things (1 John 3:20 & Isaiah 46:10) and hence when "ONLY THE FATHER" knows that hour in Matthew 24:36, hence the Holy Spirit cannot be God.
                            Your claim to know more about God than did the authors of the Bible is unsubstantiated.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              maybe because he hasn't decided at that time? It was just an idea.


                              Also at the time Jesus (the Son) had limited himself as a human being, and he probably does know now that he is back in Heaven.

                              Your comments show a lack of understanding of the Trinity. The Trinity states that there is ONE God, revealed in 3 distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are each 100% God but the Father is not the Son or Holy Spirit. He is a distinct person, which means he can have knowledge that the others do not. Since the Father is 100% God, it still means that God knows the hour.
                              There should be clarifications here.

                              Matthew 24:36 says "of that day and hour no one knows ... but ONLY THE FATHER" therefore, neither the Holy Spirit nor the Son knows the hour and everything.

                              Trinity by definition teaches that Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit are co-equal. If so, the Holy Spirit should have known the hour but did not know it since it is limited to "ONLY THE FATHER" as per Jesus own words in Matthew 24:36.
                              Last edited by Same Hakeem; 06-05-2019, 03:57 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Your claim to know more about God than did the authors of the Bible is unsubstantiated.
                                Please refer to 1 John 3:20 "God is greater than our heart, and knows all things"

                                Comment

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