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Shutdown Over Border Security?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Sure. What does it mean to "love thy neighbour as thyself"?
    It’s the natural law of reciprocity; it evolved among social animals in order to facilitate community living.

    We are commanded by the Scriptures to obey the government except in matters where doing so would cause us to sin.
    Ah yes, Romans 13: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities…” This has been cited by Nazi sympathizers, apartheid-enforcers, slave owners and now to defend Trump’s "zero-tolerance" policy on illegal immigration. Very handy passage that!

    If we help an illegal alien break the law, we are helping them to sin. We could give them the world, but at the cost of them losing their soul - which is the antithesis of loving them.
    The sin rests with those who create bad laws.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      It’s the natural law of reciprocity; it evolved among social animals in order to facilitate community living.
      That was meant to be a rhetorical question.
      Ah yes, Romans 13: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities…” This has been cited by Nazi sympathizers, apartheid-enforcers, slave owners and now to defend Trump’s "zero-tolerance" policy on illegal immigration. Very handy passage that!
      You appear to have missed the crucial qualifier which Nazi sympathizers, apartheid-enforcers, and slave owners also missed. As for Trump's policy on illegal immigration.... What's YOUR country's stance on illegal immigration? Australia has far stricter rules on legal immigration than the United States.
      The sin rests with those who create bad laws.
      Do you lock your doors? Do you think it is good policy to let anyone who wants come into your home and share your stuff without asking? Is it "bad law" to prosecute those who do so as thieves and trespassers?
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post

        Do you lock your doors? Do you think it is good policy to let anyone who wants come into your home and share your stuff without asking? Is it "bad law" to prosecute those who do so as thieves and trespassers?
        00000000000000ab0.000.jpg

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post

          Do you lock your doors? Do you think it is good policy to let anyone who wants come into your home and share your stuff without asking?
          False analogy! Nobody is arguing for unfettered access over the Mexican border. But Trump's "big, beautiful wall" is not the way to go. What is required is a layered approach to border security, one that includes sections of fencing, advanced technology and increased manpower. Apart from the prohibitive expense of the wall Trump touted during his campaign (with his dishonest assertion that Mexico would pay for it) walls alone tend not to work too well; they're readily defeated by ladders and tunnels.

          Is it "bad law" to prosecute those who do so as thieves and trespassers?
          The "bad law" is making it virtually impossible for legitimate asylum seekers fleeing violence or persecution to lodge claims in the United States.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • #95
            This may have been addressed elsewhere, but, what happened to Mexico paying for the wall?

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by MankyScotsGit View Post
              This may have been addressed elsewhere, but, what happened to Mexico paying for the wall?
              Realistically speaking that seems to have been negotiated away during the new NAFTA deal.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Realistically speaking that seems to have been negotiated away during the new NAFTA deal.
                No, realistically speaking, 'MEXICO WAS NEVER GOING TO PAY FOR THE WALL' and everyone knew it except it seems the Trump crazies. His new bs that Mexico is going to pay for the wall through new trade deals is nonsense as well. If it gets built, which ain't happening, it would be with your tax dollars. I'll bet you're all ecstatic about that pushover Nancy Pelosi becoming speaker now, eh?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  ... If it gets built, which ain't happening, it would be with your tax dollars.
                  Hi Jim, a lonely thought just entered my mind.. Did I read right that many gov employees are not paid during this shutdown? Maybe the wall can be paid or partially paid with the money the gov saves from paying their wages.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by MankyScotsGit View Post
                    Did I read right that many gov employees are not paid during this shutdown? Maybe the wall can be paid or partially paid with the money the gov saves from paying their wages.
                    About 800,000 government workers are not currently receiving paychecks because the government is shutdown. My heart goes out to them and their families over this Christmas & New Year period as Trump the Christmas Grinch has handed them a horrible Christmas period.

                    What typically happens is that after the shutdown ends, Congress passes legislation to back-pay these employees for any missed paychecks during the shutdown period. So they do, eventually, get their money. But, as always, these sorts of things hit the poor the hardest and any families of these workers who were living paycheck to paycheck are going to be suffering.

                    Refusing to back-pay these workers and instead redirecting their money elsewhere would be... controversial in the extreme.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MankyScotsGit View Post
                      Hi Jim, a lonely thought just entered my mind.. Did I read right that many gov employees are not paid during this shutdown? Maybe the wall can be paid or partially paid with the money the gov saves from paying their wages.
                      It is the norm in such shutdowns that any money that was not paid to workers due to the shutdown is paid to them retroactively after the shutdown is over (in fact, was there any shutdown where this didn't happen?)

                      If the government chose not to issue this backpay, I expect a class action lawsuit would soon follow to recover those costs, which would not only be costly to the government and thus counteract any money saved, the whole thing would also likely result in a lot of people quitting government jobs en masse, leaving everything shortstaffed, to say nothing about the PR nightmare it would entail.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MankyScotsGit View Post
                        Hi Jim, a lonely thought just entered my mind.. Did I read right that many gov employees are not paid during this shutdown? Maybe the wall can be paid or partially paid with the money the gov saves from paying their wages.
                        No, as star has explained above, they will eventually get their pay, not all of them, but most of them will. Besides the House isn't going to allocate any monies so that Trump can fulfill a campaign promise, particularly when he promised that the American tax payer wouldn't get stuck footing the bill. Whatever monies they agree to for border security, it won't be to use on building a wall.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          About 800,000 government workers are not currently receiving paychecks because the government is shutdown. My heart goes out to them and their families over this Christmas & New Year period as Trump the Christmas Grinch has handed them a horrible Christmas period.

                          What typically happens is that after the shutdown ends, Congress passes legislation to back-pay these employees for any missed paychecks during the shutdown period. So they do, eventually, get their money. But, as always, these sorts of things hit the poor the hardest and any families of these workers who were living paycheck to paycheck are going to be suffering.

                          Refusing to back-pay these workers and instead redirecting their money elsewhere would be... controversial in the extreme.
                          When I was young if you worked for the government you didn't get paid as well as in the private sector but got better benefits and great job security. That changed a few decades ago. Now while still getting the better benefits and job security they typically get paid better than their counterparts in the private sector. So very, very few are living paycheck-to-paycheck and aren't suffering any real hardship. Many in fact aren't having to go to work during the shutdown but will still be paid as if they did.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            False analogy! Nobody is arguing for unfettered access over the Mexican border.
                            You think those who want to abolish ICE have some other plan in mind to fetter access? If so, I'd like to see it.
                            But Trump's "big, beautiful wall" is not the way to go. What is required is a layered approach to border security, one that includes sections of fencing, advanced technology and increased manpower. Apart from the prohibitive expense of the wall Trump touted during his campaign (with his dishonest assertion that Mexico would pay for it) walls alone tend not to work too well; they're readily defeated by ladders and tunnels.
                            No one's arguing for a wall alone - or do you think Trump wants to replace ICE with the wall?
                            The "bad law" is making it virtually impossible for legitimate asylum seekers fleeing violence or persecution to lodge claims in the United States.
                            I see you sort of forgot to address how your own country handles such things. How does the law make it "virtually impossible"? And why is it that the United States always has to be the one who takes in those fleeing violence or persecution? If someone from [random South/Central American country] is fleeing violence or persecution, why can't they move to one of the other multitudes of closer countries which speak the same language?
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              You think those who want to abolish ICE have some other plan in mind to fetter access? If so, I'd like to see it.
                              ICE doesn't manage the border. You're thinking of Border Patrol. Nobody is advocating abolishing that.

                              The abolish ICE movement is about getting rid of a particular department created post-9/11 that has terrorized immigrant families and communities under the so-called goal of preventing terrorism. The department seems to be doing far more harm than good, so getting rid of unnecessary govt departments seems useful.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • It's worth noting that the total number of illegal immigrants in the US originating from the south has been dropping since 2008 according to Pew's estimates:



                                The total number of illegal immigrants in the US from Mexico and central america is going down, not up. Illegal immigration was a serious problem facing the US more than a decade ago. But in the last decade it hasn't been a serious issue, and the sudden conservative spazzing out over illegal immigration and the southern border is laughable.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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