Shutdown Over Border Security?

[One Bad Pig]

Fine, so long as you've admitted that it is Trump who shut down the government and so Trump who is holding the 800,000 hostages as leverage.

It takes both sides to come to an agreement, Jim.

[One Bad Pig]

It can be argued that what Trump offered wasn't sufficient, but what is indisputable is that Pelosi rejected the offered compromise without knowing what was in it so that excuse can not be used as a defense.

That was the moment that she took ownership of the shutdown.

That was why reliably liberal folks like Tom Brokaw announced on MSNBC that Democrats are now as much to blame as Trump for the shutdown.

That was why even the vehemently anti-Trump Washington Post was flabbergasted by her and other Democrat leaders obstinate intransigence noting in their opinion page "Make a deal. Save the dreamers" that

To refuse even to talk until the government reopens does no favors to sidelined federal workers and contractors. . . . A measure of statesmanship for a member of Congress now is the ability to accept some disappointments, and shrug off the inevitable attacks from purists, if it means rescuing the lives of thousands of deserving people living among us.

A headline in the Washington Post Express this morning: "Stop the madness: Dems must act if Trump doesn't." It goes on to pretty much toe JimL's line about how awful Trump and the Republicans are, but ends by weighing the balance of giving Trump what he wants or continuing the pain inflicted on furloughed government employees.

[carpedm9587]

The US may end up being saved from Trump by Trump’s desire to get back on the golf course.

OK - THAT was funny...

[carpedm9587]

No they don't.

BTC - you need to read the bill. The GOP bill that formalizes the offer guts existing asylum laws for kids, and especially trafficking victims, from Central America. It bans asylum for any minor who presents him/herself at a port of entry. It also eliminates TPS for future cases. Finally, it expands immigration detention. Denying that these things are in the bill does not make them go away. Read the bill.

Oh, I blame the Republicans too. They had the numbers and time to handle every bit of this, and they sat on their hands. Inaction is just as bad.

As I've said - it takes two to tango. But I don't think they ever had the numbers to override a filibuster in the Senate. Compromise was always the only way they would get to a bill - and the hardliners in both parties refuse to compromise.

They HAVE a legal problem. They are here illegally. And if they served in the military, they either falsified official records or misrepresented their identity - both criminal behavior.

They are here as a consequence of choices they were not responsible for making. They are as much children of this country as any other child who spent their entire life in the U.S., and they deserve an exception. By the way, DACA provided them with work permission and freedom to join the military. No falsification of papers was required.

What I think is fair is to let them stay here with relatives who are here legally until their 18th birthday, giving them time to make preparations in their home country, and then send them home. They can apply for citizenship just like any other prospective immigrant.

Then I find your position cruel and unwarranted. You seem to be part of the hardliner pack that is the "no compromise" ilk. What you are suggesting is that a person who has only truly ever known this country becomes a criminal in a matter of seconds for doing exactly what they have done for the last X years of their lives: getting up in the morning, going to school or work, and seeing their friends and/or family. And for that they should be forcefully expelled from our country to go to a place they have little/no memory of and probably don't even speak the language - because of the confluence of their parent's decision and some poorly structured laws.

I don't find your position either helpful OR moral. Just cruel and petty.

[JimL]

It takes both sides to come to an agreement, Jim.

Brilliant OBP, now if Trump didn't shut down the government and walk away they could have continued to bargain. Trump simply said, "okay, you're not going to give me exactly what I want, then I'm going to take hostages and cause havoc within the institutions of government by not funding them. Maybe that will bring you to your knees! There should be a law against using the government as hostage.

[rogue06]

A headline in the Washington Post Express this morning: "Stop the madness: Dems must act if Trump doesn't." It goes on to pretty much toe JimL's line about how awful Trump and the Republicans are, but ends by weighing the balance of giving Trump what he wants or continuing the pain inflicted on furloughed government employees.

Even as they come to the realization of where Pelosi et al has led them they still feel an obligatory need to blast Trump as much as possible. I think they realize that their fellow travelers on the left won't listen unless they first give a "Orange Man Bad" speech.

[JimL]

Even as they come to the realization of where Pelosi et al has led them they still feel an obligatory need to blast Trump as much as possible. I think they realize that their fellow travelers on the left won't listen unless they first give a "Orange Man Bad" speech.

Orange man is bad, Orange man constitutents, naive.

[rogue06]

And now we have 30 some Democrats, led by freshman Rep. Elaine Luria of Virginia, who sent a letter to Pelosi saying that she needs to compromise with Trump and Collin Peterson (D-Minn) telling his Democratic colleagues to approve President Trump's request for funding a wall to end an "unnecessary" government shutdown adding "Why are we fighting over this? We're going to build that wall anyway, at some time."

And the number three Democrat in the House, Steny Hoyer appears to be breaking ranks with Democrat leadership. First he's contradicting Pelosi about Trump giving the SOTU in the House of Representatives and then declaring that he thinks that "physical barriers are part of the solution" as well as poo-pooing the leftist mantra that walls are automatically "immoral" stating that "it depends on what a wall is used for whether it's moral or immoral. If it's protecting people it's moral, if it's imprisoning people it may well be immoral, but that's not issue."

I'll assume he isn't referring to walls surrounding jails which imprison those within yet protect those outside from them isn't what he meant but rather things like the Berlin Wall which kept the citizens of East Germany from leaving.

[rogue06]

Orange man is bad, Orange man constitutents, naive.

Coming from a NAMBLA fanboi.

[rogue06]

Oh, I blame the Republicans too. They had the numbers and time to handle every bit of this, and they sat on their hands. Inaction is just as bad.

Both sides have a historic problem of often only seeing a problem as urgent when they no longer have the power to take bold and decisive action.

[One Bad Pig]

Brilliant OBP, now if Trump didn't shut down the government and walk away they could have continued to bargain. Trump simply said, "okay, you're not going to give me exactly what I want, then I'm going to take hostages and cause havoc within the institutions of government by not funding them. Maybe that will bring you to your knees! There should be a law against using the government as hostage.

It would help if you could accurately remember and portray recent history. Jim, the government was shut down because the Democrats refused to compromise. At all.

[Bill the Cat]

Orange man is bad, Orange man constitutents, naive.

Crypt Keeper bad, Crypt Keeper fanbois, naïve.

[JimL]

It would help if you could accurately remember and portray recent history. Jim, the government was shut down because the Democrats refused to compromise. At all.

No, they didn't. They simply refused to agree to Trumps demands, so he walked away. If he can't get his wall, then that's the way it goes, you don't shut the government down and hurt the country because you can't get your way through the democratic process.

[Bill the Cat]

No, they didn't. They simply refused to agree to Trumps demands, ...

That's called refusing to compromise, you idiot.

[JimL]

That's called refusing to compromise, you idiot.

Typical republican mindset.