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Shutdown Over Border Security?

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  • Pelosi is claiming that she and her colleagues were planning to fly commercial for their overseas trip until Trump jeopardized their safety by publicly announcing their travel itinerary in his letter. That of course explains why Pelosi and her gang piled onto an Air Force bus headed to Andrews Air Force base where (they thought) an Air Force plane was waiting for them.

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...ir-force-base/
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      Pelosi is claiming that she and her colleagues were planning to fly commercial for their overseas trip until Trump jeopardized their safety by publicly announcing their travel itinerary in his letter. That of course explains why Pelosi and her gang piled onto an Air Force bus headed to Andrews Air Force base where (they thought) an Air Force plane was waiting for them.

      https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...ir-force-base/
      Close. Her chief if staff is claiming that they were making alternate plans to travel commercial after the military flight was revoked by Trump, but that the Trump administration had leaked the commercial plans after they were made, making it unsafe. I find that unconvincing, since if they were leaked we'd know what they are.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • 48932558_2478359695539845_3968256035805724672_n.jpg

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          What the border patrol wants is strategic extra fencing in some areas (not a Trumpian wall) to compliment the fencing already there...
          Really?

          Then please explain the survey conducted by the National Border Patrol Council (NBPC), the agents’ union, which found nearly 9 out of 10 (89% to be precise) supported adding a "wall system." This goes with Brandon Judd, Art Del Cueto, and Hector Garza of the NBPC, who all appeared with Trump at a White House briefing to proclaim that border patrol agents support the partial government shut down for as long as it takes to get the money Trump wants for his border wall -- even if that means they have to continue working without pay. As Judd, the president of the NBPC and who served on the Border Patrol for over 2 decades put it, "I promise you that if you interview Border Patrol agents, they will tell you that walls work."

          And the head of the U.S. Border Patrol, Chief Carla Provost, who uncategorically stated "We certainly do need a wall. Talk to any border agent and they will tell you that."

          And what NPR's (hardly a hotbed of conservatism or pro-Trump sentiment) John Burnett reported he heard from Border Patrol agents in San Diego after interviewing them, and they offered strong support for replacing fencing with what Burnett called "the Great Wall of Trump." According to NPR "hundreds of Customs and Border Protection agents echo the same line: the fence is not secure and a wall is needed."

          And Mark Morgan, who served as the Obama Administration's chief of the U.S. Border Patrol but was fired the day after Trump took office, said that "[Trump] is correct in what he's doing" because "the wall works" and urged Trump to "stay the course."

          And acting Director of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), Tom Homan, who proclaimed that he agrees with Trump concerning the need for a wall. Homan explained, "Every place we’ve built a wall or barrier its worked, we’ve proven that. So, why would we not want to invest in a wall?"

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            It wasn't just CNN.

            NBC's Chief White House correspondent Hallie Jackson and Ali Velshi, a senior economic and business correspondent for NBC News were railing and ranting about Trump's "sophomoric ... power play." On MSNBC Live host Katy Tur and her panelists were blasting Trump as a "man baby." New York Times columnist Bret Stephens was denouncing Trump for being "incredibly foolish" and "childish."

            Note that there was no such criticism of Pelosi but rather praise.
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Again - MSNBC is ranked just slightly to the left of CNN - and both as far left as Fox is right. So...again... what did you expect?
            And the New York Times who I also mentioned but you left out as well as NBC's Chief White House correspondent? Is there a reason you omitted them?

            But let's continue shall we?

            When Pelosi expressed her goal of cancelling the State of the Union over at CBS This Morning the move was praised as clever "political maneuvering" and a "power move." Trump's response was termed "petty political" bickering.

            Likewise on NBC’s Today show one of the network's White House correspondent Peter Alexander gushed over how Pelosi was "flexing her muscles" but the same program described Trump as being full of "pettiness."

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]34509[/ATTACH]


              smiley rimshot.gif
              Last edited by rogue06; 01-18-2019, 01:42 PM.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                And the New York Times who I also mentioned but you left out as well as NBC's Chief White House correspondent? Is there a reason you omitted them?
                I kind of thought it was pretty obvious that a "columnist" is not the same as a news reporter.

                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                But let's continue shall we?
                I have to admit that the "grin" emoji has always struck me as evil looking. It should be :evilgrin:

                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                When Pelosi expressed her goal of cancelling the State of the Union over at CBS This Morning the move was praised as clever "political maneuvering" and a "power move." Trump's response was termed "petty political" bickering.
                Rogue - as best I can tell, "CBS This Morning" is the CBS equivalent of "Fox and Friends." Although these programs often use the backdrops of a news room - they are about as much "news" as "Oprah" or "Helen" or (for us older dudes), "Mike Douglas."

                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Likewise on NBC’s Today show one of the network's White House correspondent Peter Alexander gushed over how Pelosi was "flexing her muscles" but the same program described Trump as being full of "pettiness."
                The same thing is true of the "Today" show. These aren't news programs. They're talk programs with commentary that talk about pretty much anything, including the latest news stories. They are essentially "verbal columnists."

                And there is a left lean to most such programming - except on Fox of course. There the lean is strongly right.
                Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-18-2019, 05:01 PM.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  I kind of thought it was pretty obvious that a "columnist" is not the same as a news reporter.



                  Rogue - as best I can tell, "CBS This Morning" is the CBS equivalent of "Fox and Friends." Although these programs often use the backdrops of a news room - they are about as much "news" as "Oprah" or "Helen" or (for us older dudes), "Mike Douglas."



                  The same thing is true of the "Today" show. These aren't news programs. They're talk programs with commentary that talk about pretty much anything, including the latest news stories. They are essentially "verbal columnists."

                  And there is a left lean to most such programming - except on Fox of course. There the lean is strongly right.
                  That's a lot of fitful flailing and floundering there carpe. You seem to be deliberately overlooking that several of these comments are coming from Chief White House correspondents and the like.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Really?

                    Then please explain the survey conducted by the National Border Patrol Council (NBPC), the agents’ union, which found nearly 9 out of 10 (89% to be precise) supported adding a "wall system." This goes with Brandon Judd, Art Del Cueto, and Hector Garza of the NBPC, who all appeared with Trump at a White House briefing to proclaim that border patrol agents support the partial government shut down for as long as it takes to get the money Trump wants for his border wall -- even if that means they have to continue working without pay. As Judd, the president of the NBPC and who served on the Border Patrol for over 2 decades put it, "I promise you that if you interview Border Patrol agents, they will tell you that walls work."
                    In “the NBPC’s survey, of more than 600 agents in two of the Border Patrol’s busiest sectors, found … 89 percent of line agents say a “wall system in strategic locations is necessary to securing the border.” Just 7 percent disagreed.

                    But that language doesn’t distinguish between existing sections of wall and the wisdom of what Trump wants to build going forward. Most members of the Democratic caucus in Congress believe that a “wall system in strategic locations” is necessary.”

                    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...p-nbpc/580237/

                    This is what Pelosi is advocating. Pelosi said Democrats would give money for "border security" but not a Trumpian wall.
                    Last edited by Tassman; 01-19-2019, 03:49 AM.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      That's a lot of fitful flailing and floundering there carpe.
                      You and Seer and Sparko are definitely fans of pointless well poisoning.

                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      You seem to be deliberately overlooking that several of these comments are coming from Chief White House correspondents and the like.
                      That I missed completely. So which White House correspondents and what statements where?

                      For the rest, I stand by the observation that the Today show, Good Morning America, Fox and Friends, Hannity, Maddow, and all of the programs of their ilk are not "news." They are the visual equivalent of columnists. Because of how they are structured - they confuse a lot of people - no question about it.

                      And media outlets are skewed. There are essentially no outlets I know of that aren't left or right leaning - with more left than right. In this day and age - the reader/viewer needs to be alert - or they're going to get conned.

                      Why do more lean left than right? Gee - I dunno. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that news is now a for-profit business, there are more liberals and progressives than conservatives, so outlets go where the money is? Maybe it has something to do with more moderates/liberals going into journalism than conservatives? Fox and Hannity (and Limbaugh, and Coulter, and others) noted that way back and set out to serve an under-served market - which explains their strong right-wing lean.

                      Maybe what we need today is to find a way to get money OUT of news so they are not beholden to advertisers who are in turn looking for eyeballs?

                      Or I suppose we could go with "it's a vast left-wing conspiracy."
                      Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-19-2019, 08:37 AM.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        You and Seer and Sparko are definitely fans of pointless well poisoning.
                        I suspect you were aiming for some other logical fallacy, whatever it may be. They're not the ones denigrating all sorts of programs as "not real news".

                        That I missed completely. So which White House correspondents and what statements where?

                        For the rest, I stand by the observation that the Today show, Good Morning America, Fox and Friends, Hannity, Maddow, and all of the programs of their ilk are not "news." They are the visual equivalent of columnists. Because of how they are structured - they confuse a lot of people - no question about it.

                        And media outlets are skewed. There are essentially no outlets I know of that aren't left or right leaning - with more left than right. In this day and age - the reader/viewer needs to be alert - or they're going to get conned.

                        Why do more lean left than right? Gee - I dunno. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that news is now a for-profit business, there are more liberals and progressives than conservatives, so outlets go where the money is? Maybe it has something to do with more moderates/liberals going into journalism than conservatives? Fox and Hannity (and Limbaugh, and Coulter, and others) noted that way back and set out to serve an under-served market - which explains their strong right-wing lean.

                        Maybe what we need today is to find a way to get money OUT of news so they are not beholden to advertisers who are in turn looking for eyeballs?

                        Or I suppose we could go with "it's a vast left-wing conspiracy."
                        Looks like rogue skewered you pretty well, since you're still doing that flailing and floundering thing.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          I suspect you were aiming for some other logical fallacy, whatever it may be.
                          No - that's the right one.

                          Poisoning the well is a type of informal logical fallacy where irrelevant adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing something that the target person is about to say."


                          Comments like "that's ridiculous/silly/nonsense/handwaving" don't actually contribute to an argument - they simply are designed to predispose anyone who is following the argument to be predisposed to dismiss any comments made (before and after) as ridiculous/silly/nonsense/handwaving, etc. I can see no other purpose to their continual inclusion by the usual cast of characters. They don't actually contribute to a defense/response or to a logical discussion.

                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          They're not the ones denigrating all sorts of programs as "not real news".
                          Denigrating? OBP it is not "denigrating" to point out that an article is an opinion piece - or a column. These reflect the opinion of the author, and not necessarily (or even usually) present hard news. That is what has happened to many "news" programs these days. The line between "commentary" and "news" has been badly muddied because news is now a profit center and requires eyeballs - and commentary gets eyeballs. So I distinguish between news programs (e.g., the Fox and NPR hourly news podcast feeds), and commentary programs like Potomac Watch, the Today Show, Good Morning America, Fox and Friends, and the like. I recognize most Americans do not (as far as I can tell). Then you have programs like Anderson Cooper, where news is reported with a healthy does of opinion tossed in. The age of Cronkite is pretty much over.

                          However, in general, recognizing or identifying a thing is not the same as denigrating a thing.

                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Looks like rogue skewered you pretty well, since you're still doing that flailing and floundering thing.
                          And more well poisoning....
                          Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-19-2019, 01:21 PM.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            And the New York Times who I also mentioned but you left out as well as NBC's Chief White House correspondent? Is there a reason you omitted them?

                            But let's continue shall we?

                            When Pelosi expressed her goal of cancelling the State of the Union over at CBS This Morning the move was praised as clever "political maneuvering" and a "power move." Trump's response was termed "petty political" bickering.

                            Likewise on NBC’s Today show one of the network's White House correspondent Peter Alexander gushed over how Pelosi was "flexing her muscles" but the same program described Trump as being full of "pettiness."
                            00000000000000ab000-006.jpg

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]34547[/ATTACH]
                              And the point is...?
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                No - that's the right one.

                                Poisoning the well is a type of informal logical fallacy where irrelevant adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing something that the target person is about to say."


                                Comments like "that's ridiculous/silly/nonsense/handwaving" don't actually contribute to an argument - they simply are designed to predispose anyone who is following the argument to be predisposed to dismiss any comments made (before and after) as ridiculous/silly/nonsense/handwaving, etc. I can see no other purpose to their continual inclusion by the usual cast of characters. They don't actually contribute to a defense/response or to a logical discussion.



                                Denigrating? OBP it is not "denigrating" to point out that an article is an opinion piece - or a column. These reflect the opinion of the author, and not necessarily (or even usually) present hard news. That is what has happened to many "news" programs these days. The line between "commentary" and "news" has been badly muddied because news is now a profit center and requires eyeballs - and commentary gets eyeballs. So I distinguish between news programs (e.g., the Fox and NPR hourly news podcast feeds), and commentary programs like Potomac Watch, the Today Show, Good Morning America, Fox and Friends, and the like. I recognize most Americans do not (as far as I can tell). Then you have programs like Anderson Cooper, where news is reported with a healthy does of opinion tossed in. The age of Cronkite is pretty much over.

                                However, in general, recognizing or identifying a thing is not the same as denigrating a thing.



                                And more well poisoning....
                                Oh, you're doing your typical redefining things to mean what you want them to mean. Carry on.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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