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Shutdown Over Border Security?

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    In short, the shutdown is the sole result of the "National Emergency" of Trump risking the ire of his all-important base by not building his "big beautiful wall".. Looking at you!
    It's ridiculous to claim it's the "sole result" of Trump when the Democrats are free to, at any point, simply give him the money in the budget and have it pass. It takes two sides to cause a government shutdown.

    One could of course argue that the Democrats are in the right by claiming that Trump's desire for funds for the wall is unreasonable. But even if the Democrats are in the right, that would only mean that they bear less blame for the shutdown, not that they bear no blame. They could easily end the shutdown by simply agreeing to Trump's demand to increase the spending of the national government by a tiny percentage (I believe the money Trump wants for the wall is less than 0.1% of the government's annual spending).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
      It's ridiculous to claim it's the "sole result" of Trump when the Democrats are free to, at any point, simply give him the money in the budget and have it pass. It takes two sides to cause a government shutdown.
      Wrong, there is no reason to shut down the government in order to try and force democrats to give Trump his way. If democrats gave in to that, then what would stop him or any president from shutting down the government and hurting people every time he wants something.
      One could of course argue that the Democrats are in the right by claiming that Trump's desire for funds for the wall is unreasonable. But even if the Democrats are in the right, that would only mean that they bear less blame for the shutdown, not that they bear no blame. They could easily end the shutdown by simply agreeing to Trump's demand to increase the spending of the national government by a tiny percentage (I believe the money Trump wants for the wall is less than 0.1% of the government's annual spending).
      Ransom is no way to run a government, and the democrats shouldn't succumb to it.

      Comment


      • Funny how it's always the Republicans' fault when it takes two sides to make an agreement.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Funny how it's always the Republicans' fault when it takes two sides to make an agreement.
          If Trump was serious about his wall, he should have asked for the money over the last two years when Republicans had control of the House. Throwing a tantrum about it after the Republicans have lost the House is just moronic.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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          • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            If Trump was serious about his wall, he should have asked for the money over the last two years when Republicans had control of the House. Throwing a tantrum about it after the Republicans have lost the House is just moronic.
            Exactly, after 2 years in office, all of a sudden it's a national emergency, and of course the Trumpsters, as they always do, fall for it hook, line, and sinker.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Funny how it's always the Republicans' fault when it takes two sides to make an agreement.
              Its Trumps fault because he shut down the government, because he is using it as a negotiating tool. Democrats aren't going to, nor should they, succumb to his ransom demands.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Yet another bald faced lie. Trump pointedly asked Pelosi if she would fund the wall and she flat out said no.
                Certainly not the "big beautiful wall", or variations on this theme that got Trump’s racist base on side. But the Trump spin echoed by acolytes such as you that Pelosi et al are against border security is a "flat out" lie. Pelosi is for sensible, practical border security as contained in the bipartisan legislation that Trump rejected because of Coulter and Rush Limbaugh. This “honored the responsibility to protect the American people with funding for smart, effective border security solutions – just not the President’s wasteful and ineffective wall,”

                https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ns/2512363002/

                Included in the House bill was:
                • More than $1.3 billion for new fencing in the Rio Grande Valley and funding to replace secondary fencing in San Diego and other existing pedestrian fencing.
                • $366.5 million for border security technology.
                • $7.7 million to hire 328 additional U.S. Customs and Border Protection customs officers.
                • $224.6 million for "non-intrusive Inspection equipment" at ports of entry.
                • $7.08 billion for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

                Spin it all you want. No one is buying your crap here.
                More to the point, the majority of Americans aren't buying Trump's crap about the wall and the alleged "terrorists", "people smugglers" and and "drug traffickers" supposedly flooding across the southern border.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Funny how it's always the Republicans' fault when it takes two sides to make an agreement.
                  There was already sensible, practical border security agreement as contained in the bipartisan bill that Trump rejected. The shut-down need never have happened in the first place.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    There was already sensible, practical border security agreement as contained in the bipartisan bill that Trump rejected. The shut-down need never have happened in the first place.
                    Apparently, Americans seem to agree with you, but in a pretty partisan fashion.

                    Overwhelmingly, Republicans blame Democrats and Democrats blame Republicans. Those views (about the wall) have apparently hardened in the past year and (about the shutdown) the past weeks). What is interesting to me is the distribution of independents. They also primarily blame Trump and Republicans - but not by as wide a margin as Democrats.

                    This is the block Trump is ignoring - and ignoring that he needs them to win in 2020. His base is not enough. But he is caught on the horns of a dilemma. If he tries to entice this block - his base is likely to weaken (or at least he thinks so...personally I don't think anything will loosen the devotion of his base). But if he continues to play to his base (which seems to be his pattern), he increasingly alienates this group of generally more moderate voters. Yes, there are members of Trump's base among independents, but in general there is a tendency for independents to be more centrist than extreme to either side of the political divide.

                    100,000 votes. That's what Trump won by. I find the signs very encouraging. Trump appears to be shooting himself in the foot, but he also appears to have no choice. He's essentially painted himself into a political corner.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Apparently, Americans seem to agree with you, but in a pretty partisan fashion.

                      Overwhelmingly, Republicans blame Democrats and Democrats blame Republicans. Those views (about the wall) have apparently hardened in the past year and (about the shutdown) the past weeks). What is interesting to me is the distribution of independents. They also primarily blame Trump and Republicans - but not by as wide a margin as Democrats.

                      This is the block Trump is ignoring - and ignoring that he needs them to win in 2020. His base is not enough. But he is caught on the horns of a dilemma. If he tries to entice this block - his base is likely to weaken (or at least he thinks so...personally I don't think anything will loosen the devotion of his base). But if he continues to play to his base (which seems to be his pattern), he increasingly alienates this group of generally more moderate voters. Yes, there are members of Trump's base among independents, but in general there is a tendency for independents to be more centrist than extreme to either side of the political divide.

                      100,000 votes. That's what Trump won by. I find the signs very encouraging. Trump appears to be shooting himself in the foot, but he also appears to have no choice. He's essentially painted himself into a political corner.
                      Yes, the majority of the country disagrees with Trump and his wall, he got trounced in the midterms, lost the House, and now wants to play dictator and hold the U.S. government hostage in order to defeat the democratic process. And if that doesn't work call for a National Emergency. Got to love the hypocrisy of the conservatives who took to labeling Obama a dictator, but they love them some Trump.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Yes, the majority of the country disagrees with Trump and his wall, he got trounced in the midterms, lost the House, and now wants to play dictator and hold the U.S. government hostage in order to defeat the democratic process. And if that doesn't work call for a National Emergency. Got to love the hypocrisy of the conservatives who took to labeling Obama a dictator, but they love them some Trump.
                        Apparently, "elections have consequences" only applies when discussing one's own election.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Yes, the majority of the country disagrees with Trump and his wall, he got trounced in the midterms, lost the House, and now wants to play dictator and hold the U.S. government hostage in order to defeat the democratic process. And if that doesn't work call for a National Emergency. Got to love the hypocrisy of the conservatives who took to labeling Obama a dictator, but they love them some Trump.
                          It’s amusing to watch your delusions. Somehow under Obama losing the house, senate, dozens of governorships and state houses is totally not a big deal, but republicans losing by average in a midterm election is. Okay, whatever floats your boat.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            It’s amusing to watch your delusions. Somehow under Obama losing the house, senate, dozens of governorships and state houses is totally not a big deal, but republicans losing by average in a midterm election is. Okay, whatever floats your boat.
                            And where did I say that those democrat loses under Obama was no big deal? Apparently the deluded one is yourself Lilpix.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Yes, the majority of the country disagrees with Trump and his wall, he got trounced in the midterms, lost the House, and now wants to play dictator and hold the U.S. government hostage in order to defeat the democratic process. And if that doesn't work call for a National Emergency. Got to love the hypocrisy of the conservatives who took to labeling Obama a dictator, but they love them some Trump.
                              Interesting how Trump has gone from from Mexico paying for a wall to not paying government employees until the American people pay for a wall.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Apparently, "elections have consequences" only applies when discussing one's own election.
                                The "election has consequences" statement always makes me laugh at conservatives who use it to try to pretend Obama was some sort of dictator... (a) there's precious little evidence Obama ever actually uttered those words, and (b) Obama went out of his way to absolutely bend over backwards to try to compromise with Republicans and achieve grand bargains with them etc, he was the precise opposite of a dictatorial non-compromising tyrant that they try to make him out to be.

                                Ironically, I personally think that actually the single biggest strategic failure of Obama's administration was precisely that he spent his first 6 years in office trying too hard to achieve compromise with people who were very clearly not interested in compromise. Many of his greatest failures as a President, IMO, arose precisely because he wasn't strong in negotiating with the Republicans and wasn't prepared to stick it to them and tell them "elections have consequences" and play hardball with them and tell them where to stick it, and instead played soft-ball namby-pamby mealy-mouthed negotiator with them for years even after it was abundantly clear it wasn't working.

                                He was naively and egotistically convinced that he could achieve a successful bargain with Republicans where previous Democrats had failed just because he was prepared to offer the Republicans a better deal than had been offered before and sacrifice Democratic priorities to an extent that no one had been prepared to do so before. He thought if he offered them the possibility of cutting social security that Republicans would leap on it. Instead they responded with the Tea Party movement that demanded zero compromise whatsoever under any circumstances and proceeded to torpedo all negotiations, thus defeating Obama's entire strategy of trying to work with and compromise with the Republicans.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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