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Shutdown Over Border Security?
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostInteresting. I consider myself "in my right mind" and I largely hold Trump responsible for the shutdown. My reasoning is fairly simple:
First, before Trump said "no" he said "yes." Indeed, the House and Senate had both signed a bill that Trump signaled he would sign to keep government open while negotiations continued. Then Trump was raked across the coals by the right-wing media pundits for "chickening out" and warned that his base would abandon him - and he changed course midstream, triggering the shutdown.
Second, before the shutdown began, Trump explicitly said he would take pride in shutting down the government over this issue, and that he would take full responsibility and not blame anyone else. Most of us knew THAT wasn't going to happen - because Trump ALWAYS blames someone else (and I seldom use superlatives). Still - he said it.
Third, Democrats have repeatedly offered to negotiate over border security (which is the umbrella issue we should all be concerned about) and Trump is locked onto "the wall."
He has painted himself into a corner, because he made "the wall" the optical representation of "security" and worked to convince his base that "we can't have security without a wall." So now - his base wants a wall. So it is Trump unwilling to negotiate - not the Dems. The Dems want an open discussion about security - and Trump wants a wall.
I would allocate a bit of blame to the Republicans for not passing any bill at all - but I understand McConnell's position: it is pointless to waste the effort so long as Trump is not going to sign it. Personally, I think they should vote anyway, so we can see exactly where the Republicans in Congress stand on the issue (we know where the Dems stand). But so long as there is no vote - there is no hard-fast evidence of Republican complicity in the issue.
So - my vote is "Trump is to blame."
You can disagree with any part of that - but it doesn't make me (and others like me) "stupid" because we hold these informed and considered opinions.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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There's a reason why these polls never ask WHY they disapprove...That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
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IIRC this supposed "right-leaning skew" was what made them the most accurate of the major pollsters in the 2016 election (a few of the others changed their continued prediction of a Clinton landslide to one of a closer race -- though with Hillary still winning -- at the very end when nobody was paying much attention any longer as a face-saving measure).
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThere's a reason why these polls never ask WHY they disapprove...Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostFor instance, I'm baffled why Trump waited until the Democrats controlled the House before he took a hard-line stance on the wall. Surely he would have had better luck getting the Republicans to cooperate if he had done this a year ago.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostFor instance, I'm baffled why Trump waited until the Democrats controlled the House before he took a hard-line stance on the wall. Surely he would have had better luck getting the Republicans to cooperate if he had done this a year ago.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAgain, most Americans are stupid.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostYeah, no he didn't. Freedom Caucus members took to the House floor on Wednesday night before his decision to urge Trump not to sign the continuing resolution without his border wall money included. He listened to them.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostHe said that to put the onus on Chuck and Nancy to actually do the right thing, which they didn't. And to stop them from whining like little babies.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAnd since the Dems can't even articulate what "border security" even means, and their version of negotiate is either 1) reward the criminals with citizenship, or 2) "No", there is little left for Trump to do.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThere is no separating the two. Hasn't been for decades. You can not have security without a physical barrier that is the primary means of deterrence. And the Dems do not want a discussion about security. They want amnesty for illegals and to kick the can of security as far down the road as they can. If they were serious, like they were for the ACA, it would have already been done.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThe House DID pass the measure with Trump's 5 Billion before the Dems took over. The Senate failed to even bring the House bill up for a vote because of RINO promises to vote against it.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAnd it's apparently based on ignorance and misinformation.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThey aren't informed. You hypothesized on the first without even considering the appeal the night before from the Freedom Caucus. you hyper-literalized the second rhetorical device, and just plain missed the entire history of the third. So, yes. Your blaming Trump is ignorant.
And despite your objections - the third is an accurate representation of the state of affairs. Dems are willing to negotiate "border security." Trump is fixated on "the wall" - which is only one PART of border security. So the Dems are focused on the what and willing to negotiate the how. Trump is fixated on a how.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThere's a reason why these polls never ask WHY they disapprove...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIIRC this supposed "right-leaning skew" was what made them the most accurate of the major pollsters in the 2016 election (a few of the others changed their continued prediction of a Clinton landslide to one of a closer race -- though with Hillary still winning -- at the very end when nobody was paying much attention any longer as a face-saving measure).The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThe RINOs refused to cooperate.
And has anyone else noticed how often things that actually don't reflect virtue/value get wrapped up in positive sounding names? The "Freedom Caucus" - the "Problem Solvers Caucus" - the "Patriot Act" and so forth. I mean, after all - how could anyone argue with freedom...or patriotism... or problem solving.
A rose by any other name...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo - just the small percentage willing to follow Trump into Hell itself.
JimThat's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostActually - I know of only two polls (state level) that were outside their margin of error in 2016 - so I really don't know where people get this "all the polls were wrong" thing. I'd be curious to know which polls you are referring to that were wrong. I have a sneaking suspicion that you are doing what Sparko does and confusing projected probabilities with polls.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post"RINO" is just shorthand for "doesn't walk in lock step with the so-called 'Freedom Caucus.' "
And has anyone else noticed how often things that actually don't reflect virtue/value get wrapped up in positive sounding names? The "Freedom Caucus" - the "Problem Solvers Caucus" - the "Patriot Act" and so forth. I mean, after all - how could anyone argue with freedom...or patriotism... or problem solving.
A rose by any other name...That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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