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Shutdown Over Border Security?

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  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    And remains so at present. He was willing to back off of what he did initially. That's a compromise.
    But a meaningless one - it solves nothing and trades a temporary halt for a permanent resource.

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    And as of now, it's still canceled. And without this compromise, they will remain canceled.
    It is actually on hold - and in the courts pending resolution. With any luck, it will stay in that state until Trump is removed from office in 2020.

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    It's called a compromise. Giving up something he received already.
    Except he hasn't - really. He revoked the status - the courts stopped it - and it's awaiting resolution. So it's a "compromise" without a great deal of substance.

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Nor is only 5 Billion for border security. There will be long term costs involved.
    Exactly.

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Unless we discuss their status in that 3 year window. As of now, they have 35 days left before their protection is over.
    As far as I can tell, DACA renewal applications are still being accepted pending the outcome of litigation. I'm less clear on TPS.

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    No. It is MORE stubborn because it isn't even resembling a compromise. It's an ultimatum.
    Actually - several bills have been put forward to separate border negotiations from the employment status of federal employees. McConnell refuses to bring any of them up for a vote. As best I can tell, McConnell KNOWS several of them have enough votes to pass, because several Republicans have voiced support. If they do that, it will require Trump to actively veto bills, which will likely further erode Trump's flagging support. So McConnell is hiding behind "won't vote if Trump won't support."

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    And I think their declaring it a non-starter shows they have no real interest in deterring illegal immigration.
    You are entitled to your view. I see no reason to agree with you because I don't think the facts support that position. I DO think that the Dems are on dangerous ground if they do not get moving and put forward an immigration plan for consideration. Hopefully, they are smart enough to have something in the works. If not - they are likely to see the tide of public opinion shift against them. Right now, it's mostly Trump's base - and that's not enough.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      Based on what I am seeing from the Dems - it is seeming more and more to me that they are opposed to providing funding for ANY fencing or wall construction whatsoever. I think that's a mistake, and not in our best security interests. However, I also think that Trump's "offer" is pretty ludicrous. I suggest that the Dems need to step up and put forward their own detailed proposal for border security. If they don't do it soon, the tide of public opinion is very likely to turn against them.
      This is why you have folks like reliably liberal (though not radically so) Tom Brokaw announcing on MSNBC that Democrats are as much to blame as Trump for the shutdown. He and others are starting to see that Pelosi and Schumer have become roadblocks to any compromise and progress.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        That's a lot of fitful flailing and floundering there carpe. You seem to be deliberately overlooking that several of these comments are coming from Chief White House correspondents and the like.
        Splitting hairs is one of Carp's most common tactics.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post



          Turning down the compromise shows HER to be the hostage taker.
          Never forget that she summarily rejected any offer of compromise without even bothering to see what was being offered. That, as I've repeatedly said, was the moment that she took full ownership of the shutdown.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Never forget that she summarily rejected any offer of compromise without even bothering to see what was being offered. That, as I've repeatedly said, was the moment that she took full ownership of the shutdown.
            Horse hockey. The content of the offer was even leaking in the public sphere before Trump made his announcement. There is no reason to assume that the Dems did not know what was in the offer before it was made publicly.

            It takes two to tango.

            And in this case - the dancers are both playing to their base.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              But a meaningless one - it solves nothing and trades a temporary halt for a permanent resource.
              But it gives them 3 more years to figure it out. And should the administration be successful in shutting it down via the courts, they will have nothing.


              It is actually on hold - and in the courts pending resolution. With any luck, it will stay in that state until Trump is removed from office in 2020.
              You're willing to gamble the DACA recipients futures on "with any luck"?


              Except he hasn't - really. He revoked the status - the courts stopped it - and it's awaiting resolution. So it's a "compromise" without a great deal of substance.
              Not true. The compromise will clear up the court case that put an end to the program. If it's given a 3 year extension, the impetus for the court case is gone.



              Exactly.
              Which the Dems obviously don't want. They don't want to stop illegals coming in. They are ready-made voters.


              As far as I can tell, DACA renewal applications are still being accepted pending the outcome of litigation. I'm less clear on TPS.
              Some countries are still barred from TPS status, but others are still being accepted.


              Actually - several bills have been put forward to separate border negotiations from the employment status of federal employees. McConnell refuses to bring any of them up for a vote. As best I can tell, McConnell KNOWS several of them have enough votes to pass, because several Republicans have voiced support. If they do that, it will require Trump to actively veto bills, which will likely further erode Trump's flagging support. So McConnell is hiding behind "won't vote if Trump won't support."
              Mitch understands that if he divorces the two issues, there will never be a negotiation on the border. Especially now that the Dems control the House.


              You are entitled to your view. I see no reason to agree with you because I don't think the facts support that position. I DO think that the Dems are on dangerous ground if they do not get moving and put forward an immigration plan for consideration. Hopefully, they are smart enough to have something in the works. If not - they are likely to see the tide of public opinion shift against them. Right now, it's mostly Trump's base - and that's not enough.
              Obama was quoted as saying he wanted to get DACA done because they would later support Democrats. I can't find where I cited that quote, and am pretty busy at work so I can't take the time to scour my posts... sorry.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                But it gives them 3 more years to figure it out. And should the administration be successful in shutting it down via the courts, they will have nothing.
                So you think Trump offering temporary relief from a situation that might not end up being a problem is a meaningful "compromise?" We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                You're willing to gamble the DACA recipients futures on "with any luck"?
                I'm unwilling to trade a known for an unknown.

                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Not true. The compromise will clear up the court case that put an end to the program. If it's given a 3 year extension, the impetus for the court case is gone.
                For three years. And remember that only those who have reached their time limit are potentially subject for deportation, which is a fraction of the group between now and the end of Trump's presidency. I also think Trump will have a hard time actually pushing forward on deporting these young people in the middle of a presidential election. However, if he does, it will be another nail in his political coffin.

                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Which the Dems obviously don't want. They don't want to stop illegals coming in. They are ready-made voters.
                As far as I know, an illegal immigrant is not elligible to vote. Examples of this happening are scarce.

                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Some countries are still barred from TPS status, but others are still being accepted.
                This is true. Basically, as far as I can tell, Trump ended TPS status for anything he thought had gone on too long - especially if it started under Obama.

                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Mitch understands that if he divorces the two issues, there will never be a negotiation on the border. Especially now that the Dems control the House.
                Certainly not negotiation that Trump will find palatable. But this is speculation - and what happened to "the great negotiator?" As best I can tell, he doesn't seem to have much skill in that domain.

                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Obama was quoted as saying he wanted to get DACA done because they would later support Democrats. I can't find where I cited that quote, and am pretty busy at work so I can't take the time to scour my posts... sorry.
                I'm not aware of this. However, it wouldn't surprise me that Obama would be astute enough to know that any party that solves the DACA problem will probably become the preferred party for that group. And the DACA people are highly sympathetic, given how they achieved their status. With the pretty strong anti-immigrant stance from Republicans, it's pretty much a given that Democrats are likely to seize that opportunity. I can't say I blame them. It's a politically savvy move.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Horse hockey. The content of the offer was even leaking in the public sphere before Trump made his announcement. There is no reason to assume that the Dems did not know what was in the offer before it was made publicly.

                  It takes two to tango.

                  And in this case - the dancers are both playing to their base.
                  In this case, whose base is likely to suffer more in an extended shutdown?
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    In this case, whose base is likely to suffer more in an extended shutdown?
                    That's hard to answer. There are elements of both bases that are going to experience some degree of pain. As best I can tell, the longer this lasts the wider that pain will spread.

                    Do you have something specific in mind?
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      That's hard to answer. There are elements of both bases that are going to experience some degree of pain. As best I can tell, the longer this lasts the wider that pain will spread.

                      Do you have something specific in mind?
                      No, just raising the question. It seems to me that the side which experiences more pain is the side more likely to cave first - however far off that may be.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        No, just raising the question. It seems to me that the side which experiences more pain is the side more likely to cave first - however far off that may be.
                        That seems likely - but sometimes ideology trumps (pun intended) personal pain. Trump foolishly went on record taking responsibility for the shutdown, so that continues to play against him. He is also advocating for something that most of the country does not want, so he is facing those headwinds as well. He is facing an election cycle in which it is now the Senate Republicans defending a significant number of "blue" seats, so they are more likely to want to find common ground with the Dems.

                        But I do agree that the Dems will be at risk if they do not get proactive about an immigration proposal. As long as they are silent, they are vulnerable to the endless "Dems don't care about border security" chant from the right. I think we can count on that chant being relentlessly repeated for the duration of this impasse.

                        ETA: Apparently I'm not the only one with this view.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          In this case, whose base is likely to suffer more in an extended shutdown?
                          Doesn't matter, you don't encourage hostage takers by negotiating and giving them what they want. Trump no longer owns the House, they were elected in opposition to him and his policies. If he wants to negotiate a deal with an co-equal branch of government, then he needs to stop acting like a tyrant, open the government, and negotiate. The government workers have nothing to do with it and this is just another reason for impeaching the treasonous wannabe dictator.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Doesn't matter, you don't encourage hostage takers by negotiating and giving them what they want. Trump no longer owns the House, they were elected in opposition to him and his policies. If he wants to negotiate a deal with an co-equal branch of government, then he needs to stop acting like a tyrant, open the government, and negotiate. The government workers have nothing to do with it and this is just another reason for impeaching the treasonous wannabe dictator.
                            You're a deluded lunatic. Pelosi is the hostage taker.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              You're a deluded lunatic. Pelosi is the hostage taker.
                              • Trump: "I am proud to shut down the government for border security."
                              • Trump: "If we don’t get what we want, one way or the other, whether it’s through you, through military, through anything you want to call, I will shut down the government,
                              • Trump: "I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I’m not going to blame you for it."


                              Source

                              But it's Pelosi taking hostages?
                              • The message from Trump: Give me what I want and I won't reopen the government until you do.
                              • The message from Pelosi: Let's get the government employees out of the middle, open government, and then negotiate on the border issues.



                              And which one is holding hostage again...?
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Trump no longer owns the House, they were elected in opposition to him and his policies. If he wants to negotiate a deal with an co-equal branch of government, then he needs to stop acting like a tyrant, open the government, and negotiate.
                                That's not how this works, Jim. That's never how it works. Giving up leverage is stupid. The Democrats could always count on the Republicans caving anyway, but this time around things might be different.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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