Shutdown Over Border Security?

[carpedm9587]

Oh, you're doing your typical redefining things to mean what you want them to mean. Carry on.

Interesting. So how do you see this as NOT "poisoning the well?" I provided the definition - which are not my words. Where do you think the link between the definition and the application "jumps the rails" (so to speak)?

[Tassman]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34547[/ATTACH]

You can object to Pelosi’s demurring over the Trump State of the Union if you want. But we all know that Trump would misuse the occasion for a blatantly inappropriate party-political, factually misleading speech re the (non-existent) “urgency” for a wall that the majority of the country doesn’t want.

http://fortune.com/2018/12/12/trump-border-wall-poll/

The only urgency is Trump’s fear of losing his base, the only ones who really want his wall.

[carpedm9587]

You can object to Pelosi’s demurring over the Trump State of the Union if you want. But we all know that Trump would misuse the occasion for a blatantly inappropriate party-political, factually misleading speech re the (non-existent) “urgency” for a wall that the majority of the country doesn’t want.

http://fortune.com/2018/12/12/trump-border-wall-poll/

The only urgency is Trump’s fear of losing his base, the only ones who really want his wall.

Every president I have ever watched has leveraged the SOTU to praise themselves and their party and their platform.

[Tassman]

Every president I have ever watched has leveraged the SOTU to praise themselves and their party and their platform.

Yes, that may well be the case, but in this instance a Trump SOTU is virtually guaranteed to be an overtly partisan attack on Pelosi plus the usual crap about the “urgency” to build a wall to stop “vicious coyotes and ruthless gangs” and “vast quantities of illegal drugs” causing “thousands of deaths” etc. etc. etc. A wall that 69% of Americans don’t think is a priority.

[rogue06]

You and Seer and Sparko are definitely fans of pointless well poisoning.

...

For the rest, I stand by the observation that the Today show, Good Morning America, Fox and Friends, Hannity, Maddow, and all of the programs of their ilk are not "news." They are the visual equivalent of columnists. Because of how they are structured - they confuse a lot of people - no question about it.

And another own goal is scored. .

And what matters is what the guests on these shows say and who they are. As I noted some are the network's top tier correspondents

Likewise on NBC’s Today show one of the network's White House correspondent Peter Alexander gushed over how Pelosi was "flexing her muscles" but the same program described Trump as being full of "pettiness."

Odd how you could respond directly to that bit yet ask "which White House correspondents."

And you missed this as well.

It wasn't just CNN.

NBC's Chief White House correspondent Hallie Jackson and Ali Velshi, a senior economic and business correspondent for NBC News

[rogue06]

You can object to Pelosi’s demurring over the Trump State of the Union if you want. But we all know that Trump would misuse the occasion for a blatantly inappropriate party-political, factually misleading speech re the (non-existent) “urgency” for a wall that the majority of the country doesn’t want.

http://fortune.com/2018/12/12/trump-border-wall-poll/

The only urgency is Trump’s fear of losing his base, the only ones who really want his wall.

The fact that Trump would rally national support for the wall (something overwhelmingly supported by the Border Patrol and ICE) is likely a key reason Pelosi is scared to death of the SOTU. Further considering many of the new crop of Congressmen coming in and many of the old guard she probably realizes that she doesn't stand a chance of keeping them civil during the speech. Remember the outcry over the guy who said "that's a lie" during one of Obama's SOTUs? Expect that in spades -- likely constant heckling. You think that the optics of Pelosi and crew trying to slip out of the country on an overseas junket when people are clamoring for both sides to negotiate on the shutdown hurt the Democrats. That would be nothing if they act like petulant nasty children during the speech.

[Tassman]

The fact that Trump would rally national support for the wall

Highly unlikely given that 69% of Americans don’t think Trump's border wall is a priority. His only support is, as usual, from his relatively small base.

http://fortune.com/2018/12/12/trump-border-wall-poll/

(something overwhelmingly supported by the Border Patrol and ICE) is likely a key reason Pelosi is scared to death of the SOTU.

“89 percent of line agents say a “wall system in strategic locations is necessary to securing the border.” Just 7 percent disagreed.

Most members of the Democratic caucus in Congress believe that a “wall system in strategic locations” is necessary.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...p-nbpc/580237/

It's the Trump type of wall to which Pelosi is objecting, not strategic sections of fencing as a small part of overall, comprehensive border security...which is what most people want.

Pelosi’s not scared of the SOTU. Trump, it seems, is much more scared of her because he’s stuck with a highly unpopular shutdown of his own making and has boxed himself in. He needs her.

Further considering many of the new crop of Congressmen coming in and many of the old guard she probably realizes that she doesn't stand a chance of keeping them civil during the speech. Remember the outcry over the guy who said "that's a lie" during one of Obama's SOTUs? Expect that in spades -- likely constant heckling.

Wishful thinking on your part.

You think that the optics of Pelosi and crew trying to slip out of the country on an overseas junket when people are clamoring for both sides to negotiate on the shutdown hurt the Democrats. That would be nothing if they act like petulant nasty children during the speech.

Visiting the troops in Afghanistan is hardly a “junket”, it’s something the second in line for the presidency has a duty to do. One notes that the Commander in Chief has yet to make the effort. Although he had his own “junket” to Iraq during the shutdown, which he typically and inappropriately turned into a mini-political rally.

[oxmixmudd]

Ooooh!! Field trip to see Hillary?

like I said, just the small percentage willing to follow Trump into Hell itself.

[carpedm9587]

Yes, that may well be the case, but in this instance a Trump SOTU is virtually guaranteed to be an overtly partisan attack on Pelosi plus the usual crap about the “urgency” to build a wall to stop “vicious coyotes and ruthless gangs” and “vast quantities of illegal drugs” causing “thousands of deaths” etc. etc. etc. A wall that 69% of Americans don’t think is a priority.

Oh there is no question in my mind that he's very likely to do all that. I was just saying that every president basically leverages SOTU for political positioning of major priorities.

[RumTumTugger]

Wrong. It's Trumps "give me what I ask for or i'll shut the government down."

Nope, and his 5.7 billion ain't gonna to build him his wall, but it will end the hostage crisis and prevent the hostage taker from resorting to that tactic again.

Nope it is Pelosi who wants it all her way Trump has given a bit an DACA. It is Pelosi at all who are refusing to give an inch on the wall. That the border control wants it is not just Trump the Democrats are lieing to you when they call it Trumps wall it is America's Wall.

[carpedm9587]

And what matters is what the guests on these shows say and who they are. As I noted some are the network's top tier correspondents

Perhaps it matters to you. It matters not to me. That's like calling "The View" news programming because Sarah Huckabee-Sanders or Obama were guests. Guests do not turn a talk-program into a news-program.

Odd how you could respond directly to that bit yet ask "which White House correspondents."

And you missed this as well.

Yes - my bad I read quickly and noted the names without registering the roles. If these correspondents made these comments in the context of a news program - then they are exhibiting bias (IMO) in a way they ought not. If they are simply expressing their opinion in a talk-program - everyone has opinions about this administration (and every administration). I don't gainsay them that any more than I would gainsay Hannity or Limbaugh the right to express their views on their talk programs.

[shunyadragon]

Nope it is Pelosi who wants it all her way Trump has given a bit an DACA. It is Pelosi at all who are refusing to give an inch on the wall.

No inch to give. With tRump his wall is the only option, no negotiation beyond that, and only that.

[RumTumTugger]

No inch to give. With tRump his wall is the only option, no negotiation beyond that, and only that.

A wall that the Democrats voted for before. Why are they against it now? Sorry shuny this is the Democrat shut down.

[rogue06]

Highly unlikely given that 69% of Americans don’t think Trump's border wall is a priority.

"Priority" isn't the issue. During the shutdown support has increased substantially (up between 5 and 8% depending on the poll) and opposition has shrunk markedly (down between 6 to 9%). Give him a chance to present his case, point out that he's been staying in Washington willing to negotiate while Democrat leadership has been partying in Hawaii and Puerto Rico and those numbers will continue to change.

“89 percent of line agents say a “wall system in strategic locations is necessary to securing the border.” Just 7 percent disagreed.

Most members of the Democratic caucus in Congress believe that a “wall system in strategic locations” is necessary.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...p-nbpc/580237/

Thank you for making Trump's case for him.

Just a hair under 90% of those actually on the border trying to enforce the law support the idea of a wall. Most of the Democrats agree. But Pelosi, Schumer et al have declared they won't provide a single dollar for what is overwhelmingly wanted.

It's the Trump type of wall to which Pelosi is objecting, not strategic sections of fencing as a small part of overall, comprehensive border security...which is what most people want.

I can't help but notice you suddenly switched from a wall to fencing. The latter has not worked. Everyone has been calling for a wall and not fencing. And as carpe has found out much to his chagrin the notion of a wall stretching from the Gulf Coast to the Pacific Ocean was never something that Trump was calling for. It is a left-wing meme and fake news designed to misrepresent what has been requested. Yet the MSM continues to misinform the public that Trump wants a 2000 mile long wall and that is the perception the public has when asked about it in polls. The SOTU could disabuse them of that falsehood at that is what Pelosi fears.

Pelosi’s not scared of the SOTU. Trump, it seems, is much more scared of her because he’s stuck with a highly unpopular shutdown of his own making and has boxed himself in. He needs her.

Pelosi is worried that the SOTU would allow Trump to get his message out unfiltered by a hostile press. And heaven help her when they discover that she flatly refused Trump's attempt to compromise without even hearing what his offer was.

Visiting the troops in Afghanistan is hardly a “junket”, it’s something the second in line for the presidency has a duty to do.

That's the addition to her European holiday tacked on to provide a veneer of legitimacy to her junket. Even dyed-in-the-wool liberals like Chris Matthews (host of MSNBC's Hardball) have acknowledged that Trump schooled her saying he made her and her cronies "look like fools" and "caught them in the act as if they were sneaking out of town and made them look stupid."

One notes that the Commander in Chief has yet to make the effort. Although he had his own “junket” to Iraq during the shutdown, which he typically and inappropriately turned into a mini-political rally.

Yeah, he visited the troops while Pelosi was lounging in a $5000/night luxury resort in Hawaii and a gaggle of other Democrats, accompanied by nearly 4 times as many lobbyists who chartered a jet, went for a nice vacation of fun in the sun in Puerto Rico.

Trump has offered a compromise which Pelosi without even bothering to hear the details summarily shot down. This was the point when she took ownership of the shutdown. Even the vehemently anti-Trump Washington Post was flabbergasted by her and other Democrat leaders obstinate intransigence noting in their opinion page "Make a deal. Save the dreamers" that

To refuse even to talk until the government reopens does no favors to sidelined federal workers and contractors. . . . A measure of statesmanship for a member of Congress now is the ability to accept some disappointments, and shrug off the inevitable attacks from purists, if it means rescuing the lives of thousands of deserving people living among us.

[rogue06]

Perhaps it matters to you. It matters not to me. That's like calling "The View" news programming because Sarah Huckabee-Sanders or Obama were guests. Guests do not turn a talk-program into a news-program.

Continue with the frantic and futile flailing It wouldn't matter if the venue was The Shrew, er View, but what someone like Obama said on it. That is what you vainly seek to gloss over.