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Shutdown Over Border Security?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    You can buy a ticket and land with a plane. Done.
    Not without passing through customs. And affording a ticket. And a passport. Most people who cross do so on foot or via car

    I see no issue with border control, but a wall is symbolic politics.
    Walls work. Not "symbolic" work. Actually work.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      Enough to build a single mile or two of one of the cheaper versions. Or a hundred feet of the fourty foot tall, solid concrete walls many people imagine will ever be built there.
      he is trying to raise $1B. But I think it's main purpose is to show congress that this really is something their constituents want. Maybe they will get off of their butts and vote for it. They are supposed to represent the people.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Not without passing through customs. And affording a ticket. And a passport. Most people who cross do so on foot or via car
        That's how half of your illegal immigrants got there. That number would simply go up to be all of your illegal immigrants. Wouldn't change anything.

        Walls work. Not "symbolic" work. Actually work.
        If you're willing to protect them with an army? Yes. They can work. Armies can keep people out. Though even Israel's army are struggling to keep a handful of Syrian rebels from finding ways through their walls. And while I can imagine that Congress would cave and pay the 40-100 billion dollars a wall like Trump originally described would cost, I can't imagine that they'd pay for trained officers to guard the whole length of it.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          he is trying to raise $1B. But I think it's main purpose is to show congress that this really is something their constituents want. Maybe they will get off of their butts and vote for it. They are supposed to represent the people.
          If people wanna build it themselves I won't stop them. But there's still going to be enormous holes in the wall, because Congress has agreed that those holes should be there. Some people own property right on the other side of it. There are fences and gates that can be opened by ordinary citizens who are issued cards to do so, and that will remain the case going forward.

          Its symbolic politics.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            That's how half of your illegal immigrants got there. That number would simply go up to be all of your illegal immigrants. Wouldn't change anything.



            If you're willing to protect them with an army? Yes. They can work. Armies can keep people out. Though even Israel's army are struggling to keep a handful of Syrian rebels from finding ways through their walls. And while I can imagine that Congress would cave and pay the 40-100 billion dollars a wall like Trump originally described would cost, I can't imagine that they'd pay for trained officers to guard the whole length of it.
            Half? Where did you get that number? If half of the illegal immigrants can afford plane tickets and get visas to get into the country then they are definitely not poor refugees running for their lives like the press is representing. And if they can get visas to get into the country then they could apply for resident status legally if they chose to.

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            • #21
              Even if it IS half, that's what...a between 150, 000 and a million less illegals a year (depending on your source)? How is that not effective? Most people would see a 50% reduction as effective.
              Last edited by Littlejoe; 12-20-2018, 02:34 PM.
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Half? Where did you get that number? If half of the illegal immigrants can afford plane tickets and get visas to get into the country then they are definitely not poor refugees running for their lives like the press is representing. And if they can get visas to get into the country then they could apply for resident status legally if they chose to.
                It comes from this paper I read quote from long time ago.

                Visa overstays account for 41 percent of illegal immigration into the US by this estimate. That's not far off from what I said. And while I've seen sources critical to this. Few get below 33%, and basically none argue that illegal immigration most comes from the southern border.

                https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/...cs/illegal.pdf

                Source: Homeland Security

                About 2.1 million, or 41 percent, of the total undocumented population in 1996 are nonimmigrant overstays. That is, they entered legally on a temporary basis and failed to depart. The proportion of the undocumented population who are overstays varies considerably by country of origin. About 16 percent of the Mexican undocumented population are nonimmigrant overstays, compared to 26 percent of those from Central America, and 91 percent from all other countries.

                © Copyright Original Source



                http://www.pewhispanic.org/2006/05/2...nt-population/

                Source: Pew Research Center - Modes of Entry for the Unauthorized Migrant Population

                Nearly half of all the unauthorized migrants now living in the United States entered the country legally through a port of entry such as an airport or a border crossing point where they were subject to inspection by immigration officials, according to new estimates from the Pew Hispanic Center.

                As much as 45% of the total unauthorized migrant population entered the country with visas that allowed them to visit or reside in the U.S. for a limited amount of time. Known as “overstayers,” these migrants became part of the unauthorized population when they remained in the country after their visas had expired.

                © Copyright Original Source



                https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...ants-come-air/

                Source: Politifact - Rubio says 40% of illegal immigrants stayed in the U.S. after their visas expired

                Robert Warren, a former INS demographer whose work was a part of that 1997 report, told PolitiFact that immigration trends had changed over the years. Since 2008, there are more immigrants overstaying their visas than crossing the border illegally, but there are fewer illegal immigrants in the country overall. The generally agreed upon total of illegal immigrants in the United States now is about 11 million, down from a high of 12 million in 2007.

                But Warren, currently a fellow at the nonpartisan Center for Migration Studies, said the percentage of all overstays "had been consistent over the past 30 years." Most people crossing the border illegally come from about a half-dozen countries, especially Mexico, he said. Unauthorized immigrants from all other countries are almost all overstays.

                There have been other estimates of overstays: In January 2003, INS released an updated report that said 33 percent of the illegal immigrant population in 2000 had entered the country legally. A 2004 report from the General Accounting Office, based on 2000 data, gave estimates on visa overstays ranging from 27 percent to 31 percent to 57 percent.

                © Copyright Original Source

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  You can buy a ticket and land with a plane. Done.

                  I see no issue with border control, but a wall is symbolic politics.
                  That's harder than you might think. I'm under the potentially mistaken impression that you are from Denmark? Denmark is one of a bunch of countries that don't need to do a visa application to come to the US(or at least a simplified procedure), so you might not be aware that Mexico doesn't have that privilege. That means that anyone from Mexico that want to come to the US needs to pay a fee of 150 or so dollars.(Depending on type of visa) This doesn't guarantee permission however, and the fee is not refunded if the application is rejected. Given that most don't have a job set up on this side or anything like it, permission is unlikely to be granted. As others have said, there is a reason this is not the majority path from Mexico.

                  Fun fact: I believe the VISA program is one of the few parts of the US government that actually makes a profit.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    It comes from this paper I read quote from long time ago.

                    Visa overstays account for 41 percent of illegal immigration into the US by this estimate. That's not far off from what I said. And while I've seen sources critical to this. Few get below 33%, and basically none argue that illegal immigration most comes from the southern border.

                    https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/...cs/illegal.pdf

                    Source: Homeland Security

                    About 2.1 million, or 41 percent, of the total undocumented population in 1996 are nonimmigrant overstays. That is, they entered legally on a temporary basis and failed to depart. The proportion of the undocumented population who are overstays varies considerably by country of origin. About 16 percent of the Mexican undocumented population are nonimmigrant overstays, compared to 26 percent of those from Central America, and 91 percent from all other countries.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    http://www.pewhispanic.org/2006/05/2...nt-population/

                    Source: Pew Research Center - Modes of Entry for the Unauthorized Migrant Population

                    Nearly half of all the unauthorized migrants now living in the United States entered the country legally through a port of entry such as an airport or a border crossing point where they were subject to inspection by immigration officials, according to new estimates from the Pew Hispanic Center.

                    As much as 45% of the total unauthorized migrant population entered the country with visas that allowed them to visit or reside in the U.S. for a limited amount of time. Known as “overstayers,” these migrants became part of the unauthorized population when they remained in the country after their visas had expired.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...ants-come-air/

                    Source: Politifact - Rubio says 40% of illegal immigrants stayed in the U.S. after their visas expired

                    Robert Warren, a former INS demographer whose work was a part of that 1997 report, told PolitiFact that immigration trends had changed over the years. Since 2008, there are more immigrants overstaying their visas than crossing the border illegally, but there are fewer illegal immigrants in the country overall. The generally agreed upon total of illegal immigrants in the United States now is about 11 million, down from a high of 12 million in 2007.

                    But Warren, currently a fellow at the nonpartisan Center for Migration Studies, said the percentage of all overstays "had been consistent over the past 30 years." Most people crossing the border illegally come from about a half-dozen countries, especially Mexico, he said. Unauthorized immigrants from all other countries are almost all overstays.

                    There have been other estimates of overstays: In January 2003, INS released an updated report that said 33 percent of the illegal immigrant population in 2000 had entered the country legally. A 2004 report from the General Accounting Office, based on 2000 data, gave estimates on visa overstays ranging from 27 percent to 31 percent to 57 percent.

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Well as you said, most of those are from other countries than Mexico. So it would stop most of the illegal immigrants coming from Mexico. Which I would say is a huge chunk of illegals in the USA compared to any other country.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      They need to pass the border wall funding now while the Republicans are still in charge. No chance in hell next year.
                      There is no chance in passing it now either. Republicans have control of all three branches of government and Trump can't get his stupid wall. The art of the deal!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        There is no chance in passing it now either. Republicans have control of all three branches of government and Trump can't get his stupid wall. The art of the deal!
                        House approves spending bill with $5.7B for border wall

                        The House of Representatives Thursday approved a bill that would fund most of the federal government through early February -- and provides $5.7 billion for President Trump's long-promised border wall

                        https://www.foxnews.com/politics/hou...or-border-wall

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Someone started a gofundme for the wall and it has gotten over 6 million in a few days.

                          https://www.gofundme.com/thetrumpwall
                          $11.4 Million this morning.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            House approves spending bill with $5.7B for border wall

                            The House of Representatives Thursday approved a bill that would fund most of the federal government through early February -- and provides $5.7 billion for President Trump's long-promised border wall

                            https://www.foxnews.com/politics/hou...or-border-wall
                            Nuclear option in the Senate?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Nuclear option in the Senate?
                              maybe.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                So, I'm a little unclear. Is the wall supposed to cover the entirety of the US-Mexico border, or just the parts of it where illegal immigrants are most likely to cross over?

                                Comment

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