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Follow the (Climate Change) Money

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    There is no need for government subsidies and all that if it is a good deal. The only reason you need government subsidies is when you need to hide expenses or force people into doing something unpopular.
    Shall I note you down as supportive of a full removal of all oil and gas subsidies?

    If it were more economical and profitable to use renewable energy then that is what energy suppliers would be using
    I was contrasting the one-off costs of initial installation with the ongoing costs of running/maintenance. Let us say that the federal govt did a one-off reasonably significant spending program to build a lot of wind and solar in order to transition the country to 100% renewable energy. What would that then do for electricity prices for the average consumer? Presumably lower them because coal power plants need to spend money constantly buying fuel, whereas solar and wind plants don't.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      They preach doom and gloom without a sure solution.
      No, the solution of reducing greenhouse gas emissions is pretty clear in the messaging.

      They make prophecies that often fail.
      No, you're making this up.

      They get really triggered when you label them "climate preachers".
      Mocking you for you being silly isn't exactly being triggered.

      They double down with insults and really wild and crazy statements -- like you'd expect from...
      ...TWeb.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        And me believing or not isn't going to change the outcome.
        If you kept those beliefs to yourself, true, but here you are promoting them to others in a public forum. What will address the threat of climate change is public pressure on politicians for political action on the subject, and here you are actively undermining that outcome.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          This is basically Pascal's Wager applied to global warming.

          Yet you don't accept this line of reasoning as sufficient to take Christianity seriously.
          False dichotomy! There is no verifiable evidence of gods existing, whereas there considerable evidence of global warming.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            If you kept those beliefs to yourself, true, but here you are promoting them to others in a public forum.
            So, you're concerned that the skeptic message is more powerful than the "settled science" message?

            What will address the threat of climate change is public pressure on politicians for political action on the subject, and here you are actively undermining that outcome.
            But you are here to answer my skepticism with powerful arguments that are absolutely irrefutable! We're a TEAM!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

              So, you're accepting this concept that climate change supporters like you are "climate preachers"? You don't take offense at that term?



              You appear to be accepting, and even supporting, my analogy.
              The challenge for everyone and especially some Christians is do do something not to save yourself but to save unborn future generations. It requires sacrifice without tangible reward.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

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              • #37
                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                The challenge for everyone and especially some Christians is do do something not to save yourself but to save unborn future generations.
                Yes, I'm all about saving the unborn! You would be wise to do likewise.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Yes, I'm all about saving the unborn! You would be wise to do likewise.
                  I note that you skipped this part of firstfloor's post: "It requires sacrifice without tangible reward."

                  You would be wise to also confront his actual point.
                  "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Charles View Post
                    I note that you skipped this part of firstfloor's post: "It requires sacrifice without tangible reward."

                    You would be wise to also confront his actual point.
                    You would be wiser to note that Cow Poke has attested multiple times to doing his bit, grousing that he does more to combat climate change than the typical "climate change preacher".
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      You would be wiser to note that Cow Poke has attested multiple times to doing his bit, grousing that he does more to combat climate change than the typical "climate change preacher".
                      If your are talking about a statement like this one: "I'm already living "greener" than a lot of people I know who are climate preachers. And me believing or not isn't going to change the outcome." I am not convinced.

                      It's a bit like saying "I go to church more often than a lot of people I know who are preaching Christianity. And me believing or not isn't going to change the outcome."

                      That does not make a strong case for the idea that people should go the extra mile.
                      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        If it were more economical and profitable to use renewable energy then that is what energy suppliers would be using, Starlight. Businesses are driven by profit. Consumers are driven by prices. If you provide them with cheaper energy they will flock to it. There is no need for government subsidies and all that if it is a good deal. The only reason you need government subsidies is when you need to hide expenses or force people into doing something unpopular.

                        Solar and wind farms take up a LOT of real estate and infrastructure. That ain't cheap. Or even doable in many parts of the country. That is why most solar farms are out in the west where land is plentiful. Hydroelectric is a good renewable energy source but it too is dependent on geography.
                        No sparko. Oil will run out (peak oil) and when it does there will not be time to push the alternate energy technologies far enough and fast enough to avert disaster. This is independent of the climate and environmental issues that need us to change. This is one of those time when the capitolistic 3 month view of the bottom line would be very shortsighted and destructive. The subsidies are needed to get ahead of the curve.

                        Jim
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 12-22-2018, 10:46 AM.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Charles View Post
                          I note that you skipped this part of firstfloor's post: "It requires sacrifice without tangible reward."

                          You would be wise to also confront his actual point.
                          I'm about as green as one can get, Nanny. I'd dare say I'm doing far more for the environment than you are.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Charles View Post
                            If your are talking about a statement like this one: "I'm already living "greener" than a lot of people I know who are climate preachers. And me believing or not isn't going to change the outcome." I am not convinced.
                            Yeah, I stay up at nights worrying about what you believe.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              The subsidies are needed to get ahead of the curve.
                              I would be a lot more convinced if the dozens of "green energy" companies that Obama poured millions of taxpayer dollars into didn't almost immediately go bankrupt with several companies paying their CEO's a generous bonus before filing.

                              https://www.dailysignal.com/2012/10/...ergy-failures/
                              https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/green...ry?id=15851653
                              https://money.cnn.com/2012/10/22/new...ies/index.html
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I'm about as green as one can get, Nanny. I'd dare say I'm doing far more for the environment than you are.
                                Still not confronting the point. And I note your idea that you feel rather certain you do more for the environment than people you know nothing about. Charming attempt at escaping the point.
                                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                                Comment

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