Originally posted by Terraceth
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Christian Baker In Trouble Again!
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI disagree. The baker was being hired to make a wedding cake, the same as he did for every other couple. The reason for his refusal to do so in this case was because the couple was gay. That is discrimination based on sexual orientation which according to Colorado law is illegal. Btw, the message is not the bakers message, for him it is not speech at all, it is the message of the customers. As far as being compelled, we have laws with respect to commerce which apply to every business and every businessman.
I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions in post #68
1st. What right of the gay couple listed in the bill of rights did that baker infringe upon?
2nd Is it discriminatory not to bake a celebratory cake for a divorced person or someone who wants to celebrate Halloween based on your religious belief? For that matter is it discriminatory not to bake a cake with a message denigrating folks due to there race, sexual orientation, gender etc.. also based on your religious belief?
and to this issue about who is forcing their belief on whom
Why did the gay couple insist on that baker when he said no? Why did they not choose to go another baker who would do it? That is what a normal person would have done if the marriage and celebration of their marriage was paramount in their minds. so tell me JimL what other reason then forcing their belief on to others could there be? tell me JimL.Last edited by RumTumTugger; 01-01-2019, 12:50 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI disagree. The baker was being hired to make a wedding cake, the same as he did for every other couple.
Btw, the message is not the bakers message, for him it is not speech at all, it is the message of the customers.
As far as being compelled, we have laws with respect to commerce which apply to every business and every businessman.
At any rate, my point was that the freedom of speech argument was a stronger one than freedom of religion. I still think that's unnecessary to arrive at because I don't think the law applies to begin with.
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The obvious hostility of the state board may have muddied the waters of freedom of religion and of speech. Because their enmity towards this baker was so blatant even the Supreme Court had to kick it back rather than try to rule whether there was an outright violation of protected freedom?Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostThe obvious hostility of the state board may have muddied the waters of freedom of religion and of speech. Because their enmity towards this baker was so blatant even the Supreme Court had to kick it back rather than try to rule whether there was an outright violation of protected freedom?
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostNo, he was being hired to make a particular kind of wedding cake, not just a generic, one-size-fits-all cake. As soon as you go into any level of customization for a cake (or any product) it can no longer be said that the discrimination is based on the customer rather than the product. If he had an already-made wedding cake available in the store and refused to sell it, then I would agree with you, but that was not the case.
If you are distributing a message, even if it's someone else's, you are in fact engaging in speech. In fact, this is more than distributing, as he's the one actually making the product.
The only kind of "compelled speech" I can think of in regards to this sort of thing are cases where some extra speech is required, like requiring commercials put up disclaimers as to possible side effects of medication. In other words, that's saying "if you're going to say this, then you have to also say this." This situation, however, is not even based on that, it's simply a case of "say this."
At any rate, my point was that the freedom of speech argument was a stronger one than freedom of religion. I still think that's unnecessary to arrive at because I don't think the law applies to begin with.Last edited by JimL; 01-01-2019, 06:03 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe bible doesn't have to say it is about Jews/christians, thats what the entire world view of the scripture is. It is not speaking to "so called heretics.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostJim, the bible acknowledges marriages that are not between Christians and specifically says that if a Christian is married to a non-Christian they should remain married, for example. So there is nothing in the bible that says only Christian marriages are valid. Otherwise when unbelievers became Christians they would have to get divorce if their spouse was not Christian, or get remarried as Christians.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostOh, the bible actually preaches both perspectives, contradicts itself as usual. Most christians nowadays don't really seem to give a hoot what the bible actually says anyway. But that's besides the point anyway, the point is that it doesn't matter what the baker believes, he is free to believe what he wants, but as a businessman he can not discriminate against others based on his personal beliefs. In doing so he violated Colorado civil rights law, and the majority right Supreme Court was, I'm sure, well aware of that, which is why they didn't rule on the suit specifically and instead focused on the Colorado civl rights commission.
So what if others calling themselves Christians don't do the same? Didn't Jesus say that not all who say Lord, Lord, would be acknowledged by him precisely because their conduct did not honor him after all?Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostOK so show me where it contradicts itself on this matter. Should be simple for a biblical scholar such as yourself.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostEasy for a bible scholar like me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 "Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?"
In fact where does that verse mention marriage at all?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhere does it say anything about non-christian marriages being invalid or sinful?
In fact where does that verse mention marriage at all?Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhere does it say anything about non-christian marriages being invalid or sinful?
In fact where does that verse mention marriage at all?
I always understood that verse to apply to business dealings.
Which would make it fit perfectly well as an argument against a baker making a cake for same-sex marriage.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIt doesn't. It is not unreasonable, however, to apply the verse to prospective marriage IMO, and argue that a believer should not enter into marriage with an unbeliever.
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