Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post...if the future exists, then there is no free will.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI love trying to talk about timelessness using time based terms. It is destined for contradiction and multiple paradoxes.
(1) I don't think the future has to 'exist' for God to know what it 'will be'.
(2) It might 'exist', but I tend to think the 'future' and the 'past', relative to any given 'now' are not necessarily 'fixed' things. IOW, I am not sure there is anything other than 'now', but there are a whole bunch of them.
Jim
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Originally posted by Roy View PostI don't think you have - I think you've merely introduced unnecessary concepts that cloud the issue.
Having thought about it last night, the core problem is this:
1. You have a choice of actions.
2. God knows what choice you will make before you make it.
Can you make a choice other than that which God knows you will make?
If I have free will, the potential exists to make a different choice. God is not forcing me to make the choice I make. I can make another choice. But I won't. The way you express the problem and the solution conflate what I can chose to do with what I will chose to do. Which is where the element of provability enters. Left to my own, without outside influence, even though I can make some other choice, I won't. but if I have free will and I could know outside the system what choice I would otherwise make, I could change it. My 'chooser' is not constrained or fixed beyond with my will directs it to.
If you can, God doesn't know what choice you will make. Contradicts #2.
If you can't, you don't have a choice of actions. Contradicts #1.
Since either answer leads to a contradiction, #1 and #2 are incompatible.
Introduction other possible worlds, or knowledge of God's choice, or provability, or necessity, just adds complication that obscures the above.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by JimL View PostRight, so do you believe that your future "nows" already exist in some sense even if the you in the "present" isn't aware of those future "nows?" If not, if the future you does not in any sense yet exist, can you think of some other way that the your future could be known? I can think of one.
Another option is that there could be many different futures that 'exist' all parallel to each other. Maybe even many different pasts relative to my current 'now' if retro-causality is a real thing. I have no way of knowing.
What I believe JimL is that "God knows my future" is an accurate anthropomorphism of how God interacts with me in time and space, and that what that means is that in terms of how I perceive my life and the universe, when I reach what I perceive of as my future, God will be there and He will have already understood that is where I would end up.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 01-11-2019, 11:59 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo, all of time exists, and all of our choices have occured, including your future choices, and yet you still think that in that scenario you also have free will? You seriously can not see the contradiction in that idea?
The future is just more past that we haven't traveled through yet.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThe point I'm trying to make is that there is a difference between 'can you' and 'will you'.
If I have free will, the potential exists to make a different choice. God is not forcing me to make the choice I make. I can make another choice. But I won't. The way you express the problem and the solution conflate what I can chose to do with what I will chose to do. Which is where the element of provability enters. Left to my own, without outside influence, even though I can make some other choice, I won't. but if I have free will and I could know outside the system what choice I would otherwise make, I could change it. My 'chooser' is not constrained or fixed beyond with my will directs it to.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostMaybe this will help illustrate it for him. You can give JimL a jug of bleach. He can drink it of his own free will, but he will not. He will freely choose not to drink the bleach.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI've heard some skeptics argue that you can't exercise freewill when one choice is clearly preferable to another. I'm not saying that it's a good argument, just that I've heard it. The only thing I wonder is if Jimmy is dumb enough to go there.
The point is that he CAN drink the bleach but he WILL not. He is making the choice himself. He could conceivably drink the bleach just to prove he has free will if he wanted to. He is the one making the choice.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI've heard some skeptics argue that you can't exercise freewill when one choice is clearly preferable to another. I'm not saying that it's a good argument, just that I've heard it. The only thing I wonder is if Jimmy is dumb enough to go there."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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The motion to remove Shahid Shafi from his position as vice chairman of the Tarrant County Republican party failed by a vote of 139-49 on Thursday night.
The effort was led by several county Republicans who argued that Dr Shafi was more loyal to Islam than the US.I salute the Tarrant County Republican Party for re-affirming Shahid Shafi as Vice President of the county GOP. He is a good man who is doing a good job. And we should never allow religious bigotry to play any part in our politics.
— George P. Bush“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI don't have a 'belief' about that JimL. My future could 'exist' in some sense
- but the critical point there is what does that even mean?
To exist is itself a time based construct unless the thing existing it itself eternal and unchanging (at all times)
or completely outside time (whatever THAT means). We have no means of conceiving of a non-time based existence.
Another option is that there could be many different futures that 'exist' all parallel to each other. Maybe even many different pasts relative to my current 'now' if retro-causality is a real thing. I have no way of knowing.
What I believe JimL is that "God knows my future" is an accurate anthropomorphism of how God interacts with me in time and space,
and that what that means is that in terms of how I perceive my life and the universe, when I reach what I perceive of as my future, God will be there and He will have already understood that is where I would end up.Last edited by JimL; 01-11-2019, 07:57 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostAll of your past choices already occurred and you can't change them,
yet you believe you did them with free will.
The future is just more past that we haven't traveled through yet.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThat statement itself is a subject of much debates these days. Nevertheless, accepting it on face value:
I know that unless I intervene my son will play his games before he does his homework. Does that knowledge on my part in any way guide, direct, or otherwise force my son to play his games first?“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostFalse equivalence! God, in his omniscience, knows that your son will play his games before doing his homework, whereas you don't know for sure. Unlike you, God has eternally known, what your son will do.
Again, correlation does not imply causation.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 01-12-2019, 08:24 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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