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Trump's Christian supporters are unchristian

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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    I don't believe it is that simple JimL. There is no salvation apart from Christ - yes. But how God handles the case of the person that has never heard the Gospel and would have received it had they heard it is difficult, and perhaps unknown.
    Well, it is not only the millions of people who have never heard of your god, it is also people who have, who have read the bible, and who have come to an honest conclusion that it is fiction, an extension of earlier myths, whatever. What are they to do, pretend to believe in that which they honestly don't believe? And you people believe this your god would send all these to hell for being true to themselves? I get it, I agree that is what your religion teaches, but sorry, I just think that is a dumb thing to believe true.

    I chose not to dwell on that because there isn't anything I can do about it other than tell the people I interact with about Christ. But I can trust that God is good. That the God who would chose to go to the extreme event of becoming a man and living a human life and dying on the cross is NOT going to let anyone go to Hell that doesn't deserve to. If God sends them to Hell, then somehow that is the right thing. If He doesn't then that also is the right thing. What I do know is that we can't find eternity with God by trying to be good. Not because those good deeds are not good. But because they can't compensate for who we are without Christ.
    Well, now your using your own common sense, unfortunately your religion teaches otherwise and your fellow christians here admit to it.
    I understand it like this. Without the work that Christ does in a person, that which is in them is like a non-converging arithmetic series. In eternity they will ultimately become truly evil. But with the change that Christ works into a person, In eternity they ultimately become like Christ, and the evil that was part of them is limited and of limited impact and can be covered by Christ's work.
    Well, one would think that god could have accomplished that in the first place. But ya know, what makes you think that christ works anything into you, you might want to give yourself a little credit.
    The apparent injustice comes in that not everyone can know about Christ - or so it seems to us. I understand that. I struggle with that too. But in the end I believe God is just and good and merciful.
    Yes, but like I said, you can believe what you want, but your religion teaches otherwise.
    Consider: Most scientists think there is likely a multiverse, perhaps an infinitude of parallel universes where all possible events do occur. And across this inconceivably large number of universes their are perfect copies of all of us, living out all possible lives as us. If that is true, then somewhere, if there is any set of conditions that will convince you God is real, you have been convinced. And somewhere that fellow in deepest darkest africa that never heard the Gospel in our universe heard it in another one.

    If that is reality, then God knows it is reality. And he is NOT then unfair to make things the way they are at all. Because somewhere in the multiverse every person who has ever lived has heard the Gospel, and not only that, has heard it under all possible conditions so that if anywhere the conditions are right for them to accept Christ, they have.

    Now to be clear, I am not claiming that is true or the solution to the dilemma presented by the person who never hears the Gospel. What I'm saying is that there are things we simply don't know and can't know about the universe and the God who made it. And somewhere in those things we don't know is the answer to how things can be as they are and God also be Good, and Loving, and Merciful.
    Interesting thought Jim, but the hypothetical infinite many you's in the infinite many worlds, are not the same you. Dopplegangers, as they are called, are exact replicas of you, but they aren't you.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Well I have to say that's a new one to me. Your own idea or did you read/hear it somewhere?
      My own application of the idea in a theological context, but i have no idea if it is unique to me. Though the idea of multiple copies of ourselves is not unique. I can think of at least 5 star trek episodes spanning tos, tng, and enterprise.

      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Well, it is not only the millions of people who have never heard of your god, it is also people who have, who have read the bible, and who have come to an honest conclusion that it is fiction, an extension of earlier myths, whatever. What are they to do, pretend to believe in that which they honestly don't believe? And you people believe this your god would send all these to hell for being true to themselves? I get it, I agree that is what your religion teaches, but sorry, I just think that is a dumb thing to believe true.


        Well, now your using your own common sense, unfortunately your religion teaches otherwise and your fellow christians here admit to it.

        Well, one would think that god could have accomplished that in the first place. But ya know, what makes you think that christ works anything into you, you might want to give yourself a little credit.

        Yes, but like I said, you can believe what you want, but your religion teaches otherwise.

        Interesting thought Jim, but the hypothetical infinite many you's in the infinite many worlds, are not the same you. Dopplegangers, as they are called, are exact replicas of you, but they aren't you.
        They are not me in the sense of locality, but they are all me in terms of who I become in a given set of circumstances.

        There is always the risk with such speculation the audience misses its point, which in this case is to show that there are possibilities not considered or known which can change the character of a problem.

        Your objection, however, can be handled simply by letting the soul be a construct without necessary locality, an emergent property of a specific biological configuration. In which case the different instances all are the same soul, the same person whose essence is what survives to eternity. The body is not what survives, not the element that lives on after death.

        Another way of looking at it is that the many universes are growing out of the set of next possible quantum states, meaning all the various instances of me are in fact me, and who I really am is, in fact, when looking in n dimensions, all the possible instances of me.

        Jim
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-03-2019, 12:02 AM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          My own application of the idea in a theological context, but i have no idea if it is unique to me. Though the idea of multiple copies of ourselves is not unique. I can think of at least 5 star trek episodes spanning tos, tng, and enterprise.

          Jim
          And DS9 had several mirror universe episodes. Voyager kind of hints at multiple universes and divergent timelines.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            And DS9 had several mirror universe episodes. Voyager kind of hints at multiple universes and divergent timelines.
            TOS -- "What are Little Girls Made Of?": Android duplicates.

            TOS -- "The Alternative Factor": Antimatter universe apparently closely replicating our universe.

            TOS -- "Whom Gods Destroy": Fairly weak example. "Duplicate" by the illusion powers Garth learned.

            TOS -- "The Enemy Within": The ol' transporter malfunction scheme. Kirk splits into his "good" and "bad" selves.

            TOS -- "Mirror, Mirror": The one that spawned a legion of increasingly loathsome descendants.


            That's five just from the Original Series.

            I liked most of the other series better, but TOS is the one most clearly imprinted on my brain. TNG had "Tom" Ryker, owing to another transporter issue. And multiple Soong-type androids in the Data line. And I seem to recall an ep. with a duplicate Picard living in reverse-time. Oh, and I think "All Good Things" involved a need to correct a cosmic anomaly that was causing infinite disparate realities to conflate catastrophically.

            DS9 had one with some kind of Miles O'Brien clone, one with two of him from different points in time sitting together hating temporal mechanics, and a few involving the Mirror Universe from TOS that made me want to kill myself.

            ENT went all-in with a couple of Mirror Universe eps that tried to set the back-story for the TOS ep that started it all; they went so far as to change the opening music and footage for those eps. That was cool, but I didn't like the episodes themselves.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              My own application of the idea in a theological context, but i have no idea if it is unique to me. Though the idea of multiple copies of ourselves is not unique. I can think of at least 5 star trek episodes spanning tos, tng, and enterprise.

              Jim
              I see it like this: God in his omniscience has seen every possibility and knows exactly what each person on Earth needs to know in order to come to a saving knowledge of Him, and he has taken care to make that knowledge and evidence accessible to each individual who has ever lived, including the hypothetical person living deep in the jungle who has never heard the Gospel itself. Which is to say that a person like JimL or Starlight already knows everything they need to know to be saved, and God will judge then based on how they respond to that knowledge. Nobody on the Day of Judgment will be able to stand before God and say, "I didn't know!"

              Of course this doesn't alleviate us of the responsibility of the Great Commission because it is through us that God spreads the Gospel.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Exactly, that's what I'm saying is a ridiculous thing to believe about a so called good, loving, just and merciful god.

                God: 'Hey, hope you all didn't live before my book came out, or before I sent my preachers out with the good news, because if you never heard of me and so don't believe in me I'm going to send you straight to hell. Why, well, just because I can, they are my rules.

                I'd say that you'd have to be pretty dumb to believe such a thing, but I know you're not all that dumb, so it has to be a psychological thing, brainwashing or some such thing. And by the way, mine is not outrage at god, I don't believe in your ridiculous notion of a god, so I can't be outraged, mine is just a perplexity at how otherwise intelligent people can believe such nonsense.

                Your mockery just shows how lost you are JimL. You are to be pitied. I thought the same at one time. "Hey I am a good person! Why would God send me to hell? I haven't done anything bad!" - and yet I have done some pretty bad things in my life. I have cheated, I have lied, I helped a woman have an abortion, I have stolen. I have pretty much broken every one of the 10 commandments. But I still thought of myself as "good" - everyone does. But we aren't. Not by a long shot. God didn't owe me salvation. He only owed me justice and condemnation. But he is merciful and gracious. He offered me a way to be saved through Jesus's sacrifice. And I accepted. You can too.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  My own application of the idea in a theological context, but i have no idea if it is unique to me. Though the idea of multiple copies of ourselves is not unique. I can think of at least 5 star trek episodes spanning tos, tng, and enterprise.

                  Jim
                  Your idea would end up with an infinite number of you in heaven and an infinite number of you in hell, wouldn't it?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Your mockery just shows how lost you are JimL.
                    He's only here to
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Your idea would end up with an infinite number of you in heaven and an infinite number of you in hell, wouldn't it?
                      no, not if the soul is not subject to space and time and is always the same in all instances. Keep in mind we get a new body in heaven, nothing physical from this life/universe survives (i.e. elements linked to the physical limitations of our corporal form). While I appreciate and would probably enjoy a bit of brainstorming around the idea as a purely intellectual exercise, I want to emphasize I am NOT trying to flesh out the details and 'invent' a solution to the problem of the guy in Africa that never hears the gospel. I'm saying there are a lot of things we don't know, and even within the context of what we do know there are potential solutions, a sufficient number that we can trust that God is good and faithful and loving and merciful even though some people never hear the gospel and faith in Christ is a requirement for salvation. The Catholics deal with it a different way (I think they allow for some to find their way to heaven if they never hear the Gospel). Some (similar to or exactly what MM suggested) deal with it through strict Calvinism, those whom he foreknew He predestined ..., the people that never hear the Gospel He foreknew would not receive it.


                      Jim
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        I still thought of myself as "good" - everyone does.
                        That's the lie we all tell ourselves. "Sure, I've done a lot of bad stuff in my life, but all things considered, I'm still basically a good person," and if we ever have doubts, we can always make ourselves feel better by looking at someone else and praying the hypocrite's prayer: "Thank God I'm not as bad as that guy!"

                        But the fact is, we know the truth about ourselves, which is why Paul says that even those who don't have the law will be judged by the witness of their own conscience.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Some (similar to or exactly what MM suggested) deal with it through strict Calvinism, those whom he foreknew He predestined ..., the people that never hear the Gospel He foreknew would not receive it.
                          That's not exactly what I said. While God can see all ends, nobody's fate is predestined, and the path we take through life is entirely the result of our own freewill decisions. It is theoretically possible for every single person who has ever lived to be saved, but the Bible tells us that only a few will choose that path.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            That's the lie we all tell ourselves. "Sure, I've done a lot of bad stuff in my life, but all things considered, I'm still basically a good person," and if we ever have doubts, we can always make ourselves feel better by looking at someone else and praying the hypocrite's prayer: "Thank God I'm not as bad as that guy!"

                            But the fact is, we know the truth about ourselves, which is why Paul says that even those who don't have the law will be judged by the witness of their own conscience.
                            Wow, no wonder some of you people are so hateful, you hate yourselves and see your mirror image in everyone else.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                              Wow, no wonder some of you people are so hateful, you hate yourselves and see your mirror image in everyone else.
                              More projection, Jimmy. I can honestly say that I don't hate anybody.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                That's not exactly what I said. While God can see all ends, nobody's fate is predestined, and the path we take through life is entirely the result of our own freewill decisions. It is theoretically possible for every single person who has ever lived to be saved, but the Bible tells us that not only a few will choose that path.
                                And you can't see the contradiction in the above, i.e that "god can see all ends, but nobody's fate is predestined?"

                                Comment

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