Trump's Christian supporters are unchristian

[Mountain Man]

Would you agree that the issue of people who do good deeds toward others but do not love God gets even an order of magnitude less discussion in the bible (than people who supposedly love God but don't do good deeds), if any at all?

What does it matter if there is one verse, or dozens? The Bible does answer this question.

Matthew 7John 6Galatians 2:
We know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

[JimL]

What does it matter if there is one verse, or dozens? The Bible does answer this question.

Matthew 7John 6Galatians 2:
We know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Right, it doesn't much matter what a decent or moral person one is or has tried to be throughout their lives, if in the end they don't believe in the christian god, then off to hell they go. So stupid!

[oxmixmudd]

Right, it doesn't much matter what a decent or moral person one is or has tried to be throughout their lives, if in the end they don't believe in the christian god, then off to hell they go. So stupid!

Jim - you (and many) are looking at all backwards. The message of the Gospel is a message of hope, life, peace. It says that no matter what bad things you've done, not matter how much you have screwed up your life, not matter how many regrets you have, God has offered forgiveness and restoration of YOU through Christ. That message gets turned around a lot, trying to tell a bunch of folks that think they are righteous enough as is that they need Jesus. But that's a waste of time. Only a person that knows he's not worthy of God, that knows she's screwed up her life, that knows she needs what Christ has to offer is in any position to gain from the Gospel anyway. The Gospel is good news to the poor, the wretched, the blind. When missionaries go to Haiti or Africa or some other poor place and bring food, medicine, and a message of hope in Christ, it is very good news for those people. The Gospel is seldom good news to the rich, the wealthy, those content in their own righteousness.

I know you will point to mistakes made by this that claim Christian faith, arrogant people who in the name of Christ did this or that that was evil or wrong. Or maybe just ignorant people wanting to do well but who bumbled it up. But you are looking at the underside of the tapestry. You need to look at a drug addict that has completely lost their way and then finds Christ and whose life is completely turned around and those almost completely unknown everyday Christians around them that helped them find their way out of the abyss. Or the story of an orphan in the poorest and isolated area of African that has found the love of the Father through Christ. That is what Christ offers all of us that know we just are not good enough or worthy of God's love. That is where Jesus really is, and where he really lives - where the people are poor and weak and suffering and paralyzed by the guilt and physical consequences of the lives they have led. Watch Christ lift them up out of that and you then understand what the Gospel is, and why it is the Good News.

Look, if you don't think you need saving, then go on about your way. Jesus bring life to the lifeless, hope to the hopeless, grace to those burdened with guilt, mercy to those deserving of judgement. Just know that if you ever find yourself in one of those places, Christ is there to pull you up out of it and give you a new and better life.

That understanding of who Christ is, and how the scriptures reveal him, is not something you can easily gain by the sort of critical reasoning you try to apply to understanding Christian faith. That is just the way it is.


Jim

[Mountain Man]

Right, it doesn't much matter what a decent or moral person one is or has tried to be throughout their lives, if in the end they don't believe in the christian god, then off to hell they go. So stupid!

There is, of course, more to it than simply "believing" that God exists. As the Bible says, even the demons know there is a God, and they shudder! Rather, it's accepting God's forgiveness for your sins. And, yes, everyone has sinned. You unwittingly touched on it when you said that "it doesn't much matter what a decent or moral person one is or has tried to be throughout their lives". It is generally true that everybody tries to be good, because we all have a God-given conscience, but it's also true that every one of us has failed to live a perfect life, and that's the standard we're talking about here: perfection. As James wrote in his letter, "Whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin," and there is not a single one of us who has never done what we knew was wrong. As Paul wrote in his letter to the church in Rome, the unrepentant will be judged by their own standard, and their own conscience will bear witness against them (Romans 2:15).

The fact is this, we have all sinned and fallen short of God's perfect standard, so you have a choice: you can pay the price for your sins yourself, or you can accept God's forgiveness through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ who paid the price for you.

Most people don't find out 'till it's too late
That someone has to pay the price
You can pay it yourself
Or let someone else
But who would be that nice?

To pay a debt that isn't his
Well I know someone like that
And He's your best friend
He really is, He really loves you

Most people don't find out 'till they're half dead
That they need another life
You say you've heard everything
That's ever been said
About the Way, the Truth, the Life

You say you've heard lots of preaching all before
So many times
But did you ever open up your door
Give Him a chance
To prove Himself
Well he's real you know

I hope you find out before it's too late
That there's really nobody else
You know it's breaking His heart
The longer you wait
'Cause you've only been lying to yourself

'Cause no one believes a thing you say
Not even you
You know, you're gonna find out that He's the way
No matter which way you choose
But I pray you find out by His love for you

Some people won't find out 'till it's too late

[Charles]

MM's post reminded me of this quote by Nietzsche:

They would have to sing better songs for me to learn to have faith in their Redeemer; and his disciples would have to look more redeemed!

While that is a rather funny quote I also find it very true with regard to some of the stuff we are seeing and reading on tweb. "Redeemed" people putting others in boxes, talking about "libtards", making cheap excuses for Trump's lies, talking about the poor and the weak in low terms as if these people were not bearing the image of God and as if they were not equal.

There are so many people in here who simply can't convince me that they have found faith, hope and love and are basing their lives on ideas and ideals that the rest of us should follow. Right now many people are paying a very high price for what some of you have supported and continue to support even though the consequences are known and the lies have been exposed.

They would have to sing better songs for me to learn to have faith in their Redeemer; and his disciples would have to look more redeemed!

At the risk of hearing the usual complaints about "context" (that is explaining it all away and calling the poster a fool) let me just quote the actual words from the Bible which are there along with other quotes and which are part of the entirity creating a larger context:

Matthew 25, 34-36

[Starlight]

What does it matter if there is one verse, or dozens?

Because it's pretty easy to interpret one verse wrongly, or a few verses wrongly. It's much harder to get wrong something that's said dozens of times over by different authors in different ways.

I don't think any of the 3 verses you cite are being translated/interpreted correctly by you and I don't think they actually support your point. They're a good example of my point as to why you shouldn't build a theology on a weak foundation of very few verses in case you're misunderstanding those few verses.

[Starlight]

it's also true that every one of us has failed to live a perfect life, and that's the standard we're talking about here: perfection.

Well, that's the standard you're talking about. I don't think it's the standard the bible, in general, is talking about.

As Paul wrote in his letter to the church in Rome, the unrepentant will be judged by their own standard, and their own conscience will bear witness against them (Romans 2:15).

They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them

The fact is this, we have all sinned and fallen short of God's perfect standard, so you have a choice: you can pay the price for your sins yourself, or you can accept God's forgiveness through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ who paid the price for you.

~snigger~ Well that's a neat summary of modern evangelical theology, sure. As I have been pointing out here it's not actually what the bible teaches, nor what the early church believed until more than a millennium later when so many theological errors and misinterpretations had crept in and compounded in a way to make this view plausible.


Consider for a moment the Jewish background of Christianity. What is it that Jews believe? Do they believe they're all going to hell because they sinned even once? No. That's not a Jewish view. They think that humans can live in a way God commands, and live in such a way as to please God. They think that if, for some reason, a person were to stray from the path and sin, that person could sincerely repent, and God would accept them back because he is a loving father always welcoming the return of a wayward child and is concerned only with their present character not dwelling on historical actions by them.

How much does NT Christianity challenge and critique these Jewish views? Does Jesus tell the story of the father refusing the return of the Prodigal Son until his wrongs have been atoned for in full because of the demands of Justice, and does the second son offer himself as a sacrifice to pay the price for the repentant son? No. Is the Jewish proverbial phrase 'repentance and forgiveness' denounced with the explanation that God cannot forgive until the price is paid and is not simply a loving father who freely forgives? No. Is it explained that Abraham and other 'righteous' men of the OT were Not Really Righteous and that they hadn't lived up to God's standards and were in fact destined for hell because of their sins, unless God performed extreme measures through Jesus? No. As much as Jesus critiques Pharisees and Paul rambles about circumcision and uncircumcision, what we don't see is key arguments being made repeatedly against the basic Jewish ideas that you would like to imagine the Christians rejected.

Instead, your proof to me that humans are all horrible sinners was to cite the Isaiah verse saying the people Israel of his time, unlike previous generations, had become sinful and "our righteousness is like filthy rags", and in your mind this was Proof that all humankind ever fall short of God's requirements and can't possibly please God by what they do. Yet this verse is from Jewish scriptures and that theology you are drawing from it runs completely counter to Jewish theology. That should be a red flag for you that you are probably getting it wrong.

[NorrinRadd]

Not the entire book, and there's a bit of a focus on it in some of the letters of John too, and Jesus's approach to the Pharisees also falls under the same general topic. But I take your point that there is at least some discussion in the bible of people who love God or say they love God but do not love others sufficiently, even if you and I perhaps disagree over whether it constitutes "a lot" of discussion of it or not. (For me to say something occurs "a lot" in the bible typically means that it's mentioned in virtually every book and the total number of times its discussed is 100 or more, so something like the teaching of love toward others I would say occurs a lot in the bible. Because I'm paranoid about the possibility of misinterpretation when it comes to biblical passages - because I'm aware of theological history and just how much different passages have been misinterpreted at different times - I tend to have a reasonably high bar that has to be met before I agree a teaching is definitely biblical and it occurring in only a handful of verses doesn't meet that threshold because we might just be making mistakes in our interpretations of those handful of verses.)

Would you agree that the issue of people who do good deeds toward others but do not love God gets even an order of magnitude less discussion in the bible (than people who supposedly love God but don't do good deeds), if any at all?

I would say that "those who do good deeds toward others but do not love God" are eternally damned. It is possible that both believers and unbelievers will stand before the White Throne of Judgment; if so, believers would receive greater or lesser rewards, while infidels would receive greater or lesser punishments.

People who profess to know God but do no good deeds "at all" are false believers, since Scripture consistently shows that "good deeds" -- acts of personal mercy, grace, love -- are the evidence of saving faith.

But I'm not aware of any place that suggests that we are to try to create an earthly government that does those deeds for us, and compels all the governed to pay for them.

[Mountain Man]

There are so many people in here who simply can't convince me that they have found faith, hope and love and are basing their lives on ideas and ideals that the rest of us should follow.

I'm sure the Pharisees thought the same of Jesus.

"This fellow claims he can forgive our sins, but all he does is defy our authority and insult us!"

Anyway, if your point is that Christians aren't perfect, congratulations, Captain Obvious. Maybe for your next trick you'll tell us that the sun is hot. I guess it's a good thing that the Bible never asks you to place your faith in imperfect Christians but in a perfect Christ.

[Starlight]

I would say that "those who do good deeds toward others but do not love God" are eternally damned.

Okay. Well I will say (1) that isn't very nice, and (2) I think anything approach biblical proof of that view gets pretty iffy.

But I'm not aware of any place that suggests that we are to try to create an earthly government that does those deeds for us, and compels all the governed to pay for them.

Obviously how modern economies and politics functions is quite different to ancient times. However there are plenty of biblical teachings regarding love for others, taking care of the poor etc. I would say that anyone who had those values firmly in their hearts would want to work toward a society and create structures within society that best promoted those things.

If you simply have local charities and personal giving, then those few poor people who live in wealthy areas get looked after pretty well and have their pick of charities aimed at helping them, whereas in very poor areas that lack direct contact with charitable rich people the poor just suffer en masse. So what are needed are non-local organisation(s) that can take money/food/clothing/housing from the charitable rich people and transfer it to other areas to put it in the hands of the poor and needy. This in turn runs into two problems - (1) that the total charitable giving isn't remotely enough to actually address the needs of the poor, and (2) that the various ad hoc private charity organisations can perhaps happen to fail to cover some areas, or be working to different standards or often not meet some minimal standard as they are stretched too thin or can't reach certain communities. The solution to this for anyone who is truly concerned about actually reaching all the poor and seeing their needs are met to at least a minimal standard is to have a state-wide/national organisation with the power to take enough money from the wealthy to actually help the poor and to have the ability to reach into all communities and set out minimum standards that are to be achieved nationwide in terms of the level of money/food/clothing/housing support the poor receive. We call these entities governments and they tax and redistribute wealth with the goal of helping the welfare of all and assisting those in need.

So, to me, supporting government tax and welfare is the logical outcome of love for others and wanting to see the poor helped, just as 2+2=4. I simply scratch my head whenever people claim to be loving of others and supportive of helping the poor and yet attack the existence of government tax and welfare. I think probably, for the most part, they are just not very well versed in history, and are ignorant of the kinds of human misery that existed prior to governments being able to provide these sorts of 'social safety nets', because I don't think any actually loving person who was actually informed about the difference between having them and not having them would actually want to not have them.

[Mountain Man]

That should be a red flag for you that you are probably getting it wrong.

No, I, and hundreds of years of Christian tradition, have not gotten it wrong. One of the major themes repeated throughout all of scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, is God's perfection and man's imperfection and need for econciliation, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." What you missed in the parable of the prodigal son is that the son repented and begged his father's forgiveness. He didn't earn his way back into his father's house with good works.

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

[Charles]

I'm sure the Pharisees thought the same of Jesus.

"This fellow claims he can forgive our sins, but all he does is defy our authority and insult us!"

Anyway, if your point is that Christians aren't perfect, congratulations, Captain Obvious. Maybe for your next trick you'll tell us that the sun is hot. I guess it's a good thing that the Bible never asks you to place your faith in imperfect Christians but in a perfect Christ.

Nice way to put me in the role of the pharisees and yourself in Jesus' role... Good way to prove my point. And I see that there was no reflection on your side based on the Bible quotations or the points in the post but yet another straw man. So much for the regard for truth.

You are right that none of this proves the Bible wrong. We already knew that so who is actually Captian Obvious?

[Mountain Man]

I see that there was no reflection on your side based on the Bible quotations or the points in the post ...

The Bible speaks against me just as readily as it speaks against anyone else. Or do you think verses like "All have sinned" somehow don't apply to me?

But now that you've set the standard here, what in any of your posts has been a reflection on your side? Surely you wouldn't want to be a hypocrite and attempt to call me out for something you're guilty of doing right? Right?

[Charles]

The Bible speaks against me just as readily as it speaks against anyone else. Or do you think verses like "All have sinned" somehow don't apply to me?

But now that you've set the standard here, what in any of your posts has been a reflection on your side? Surely you wouldn't want to be a hypocrite and attempt to call me out for something you're guilty of doing right? Right?

Dodge noted.

I am sure you realise the difference between doing something wrong and continuing to support what is wrong to the degree that it shaddows your message.

[Mountain Man]

Dodge noted.

If you're referring to your own hypocrisy then yes, it is noted.

I am sure you realise the difference between doing something wrong and continuing to support what is wrong to the degree that it shaddows your message.

And I am sure you recognize that begging the question is not a valid argument. I have still not seen a single argument that proves that Trump's policies are necessarily wrong, and I have not seen a single quote from scripture from you or anybody else that would preclude a Christian from voting for or otherwise supporting a less than morally perfect politician.

But as you say, dodge noted.