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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    You can keep making up stories and telling yourself how stupid the other fellow is, or you can try to understand. Its ... your choice
    Where do you get the idea that I don't try to understand? That your explanations don't make a lick of sense isn't my fault, Jim. This isn't anything new, we've been debating this issue ad nauseaum for a decade and there has never been a legit logical refutation of the argument against the co-existence of an eternally omniscient creator and free willed creation. If the creator knows the future of his creations even before he creates them, then there is simply no logical way that the creation could be free willed. I'm not calling you stupid, I'm saying that there must be some psychological reason that you are not able to see, or admit to, that logical fact.
    Last edited by JimL; 01-22-2019, 07:52 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Where do you get the idea that I don't try to understand? That your explanations don't make a lick of sense isn't my fault, Jim. This isn't anything new, we've been debating this issue ad nauseaum for a decade and there has never been a legit logical refutation of the argument against the co-existence of an eternally omniscient creator and free willed creation. If the creator knows the future of his creations even before he creates them, then there is simply no logical way that the creation could be free willed. I'm not calling you stupid, I'm saying that there must be some psychological reason that you are not able to see, or admit to, that logical fact.
      Weve been debating this issue for a decade? Who are you that ive been debating you a decade?

      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        You didn't make the choice until you made the choice. God just knew when you would make it.
        And the omniscient God also knew what my choice would be. If I chose differently God cannot be said to be omniscient. So, either God is not omniscient OR what I decide is foreordained and not a free-will choice.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Free will is not undirected random decision making from a set of possible choices. It is the choice I choose based on whatever it is within me that causes me to make that choice. As long as it is not forced by prior causes, as long as divine beings are not making me choose whatever I choose, it is free will.
          No, it’s not. You are choosing what God has eternally known you would choose. How is that free-will?

          The predictability of my choice only factors into whether or not it is free will if the basis for those predictions is solely prior causes, or if divine agents are forcing it -> per the definition. You and JimL are assuming that Gods prediction MUST be based on prior causes. That is an assumption, you've not proven that to be the case.
          No, not based upon “prior causes”; it is based upon prior knowledge. There’s a difference.

          Again, you are back to the random chance choice definition of free-will. I'm not going to make a random pick from the options presented. I'm going to make my choice. And my choice is defined by who I am, not the quantum state of some atom over there. God knowing what that choice is does not mean I did not make that choice of my own free will. I won't make another choice Tassman, not because God's knowledge prevents me, not because I can't. I won't make another choice because the thing that makes the choice is an integral part of who I am. And without an external influence to push me some other way, I have no reason to make a different choice. And that choice is free will because it is not forced by prior causes, nor is God or gods forcing me to make it.
          God made you who you are and, even as he made you, he knew what you will choose at any given moment. There was never a moment when an omniscient deity could not know you will choose. Again, this is not a free-will choice; It’s a foreordained choice.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            And the omniscient God also knew what my choice would be. If I chose differently God cannot be said to be omniscient. So, either God is not omniscient OR what I decide is foreordained and not a free-will choice.
            If you chose differently then that is what God would have known.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              If you chose differently then that is what God would have known.
              Duh! You actually thinik that makes sense of your explanation?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Duh! You actually thinik that makes sense of your explanation?
                It does. And more sense than your misspelled and ungrammatical question.

                How do you know that Booth shot Lincoln?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  It does. And more sense than your misspelled and ungrammatical question.

                  How do you know that Booth shot Lincoln?
                  Because it happened in the past, not in the future, which is the reason why you keep using the past to try and make your point.

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                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Because it happened in the past, not in the future, which is the reason why you keep using the past to try and make your point.
                    You mean you know because that is what Booth decided to do. Your knowledge depends on what Booth did. So if you could step outside of time, or even go back before it happened, your knowledge would be the same and you would know that Booth will shoot Lincoln. Because he did. He always did. And your knowledge depends on what he chose to do. Because if he did choose NOT to shoot Lincoln, then that is what your knowledge would have always been. Just because Booth will indeed shoot Lincoln in 1865 and always has, doesn't mean it wasn't a freewill action.


                    This is very simple to understand JimL, the fact that you pretend not to grasp it, just shows that you are not willing to budge on your position no matter what argument anyone gives you. It is all a waste of time. If there was ever an example for someone unable to change it would be you. Very ironic considering this conversation.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      Weve been debating this issue for a decade? Who are you that ive been debating you a decade?

                      Jim
                      Jim, Jim isn't referring to just you, but people here in general. He's been an active participant here for easily that long.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        We repeat it ad nauseaum in the hopes that it will finally sink in, but oddly enough it never seems to get through. Very odd actually, because it's really a rather simple concept to understand. Must be a mental wall against logic erected in defense of their religious beliefs. Interesting.
                        Oddly enough, I don't accept wrong concepts no matter how many times they're repeated.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Oddly enough, I don't accept wrong concepts no matter how many times they're repeated.
                          You apparently don't accept correct concepts either, if they happen to contradict your beliefs.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            You mean you know because that is what Booth decided to do. Your knowledge depends on what Booth did.
                            No, I mean I would know because it is historic, it happened in the past, and there is no contradiction in ones having knowledge of past free will actions.
                            So if you could step outside of time, or even go back before it happened, your knowledge would be the same and you would know that Booth will shoot Lincoln.
                            Why is it that you can't grasp the simple fact that if you could step outside of time and so view it all, past present and most importantly the future, then all of time exists. There is no change in such a system, if all of time exists, then all of time exists, and if it is all there to be seen from the ouside, then there were, and are, no choices being made in time.


                            Because he did. He always did. And your knowledge depends on what he chose to do.
                            "He always did"? Think about that for a moment. What do you mean by "always?"


                            Because if he did choose NOT to shoot Lincoln, then that is what your knowledge would have always been.
                            Understand yet?

                            Just because Booth will indeed shoot Lincoln in 1865 and always has, doesn't mean it wasn't a freewill action.
                            "Always" Again, think about the contradiction. You can't both be going to shoot Lincoln in 1865 and also "always" have shot Lincoln in 1865.

                            This is very simple to understand JimL, the fact that you pretend not to grasp it, just shows that you are not willing to budge on your position no matter what argument anyone gives you. It is all a waste of time. If there was ever an example for someone unable to change it would be you. Very ironic considering this conversation.
                            Oh please stop, you're making yourself look mentally inept. Use your brain, I know you have one.

                            Comment


                            • Guys, JimL and Tassman are right. We don't have free will.

                              Just look at this thread, and the others on this topic over the years. JimL and Tassman have consistently shown that they can't give an argument for their position, they can't change their views and they can't persuade others to change their views either. And the people who disagree with JimL and Tassman have no free will to stop posting and trying to persuade the unpersuadable. That proves that no-one here has free will.

                              /sarcasm
                              ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                                Guys, JimL and Tassman are right. We don't have free will.

                                Just look at this thread, and the others on this topic over the years. JimL and Tassman have consistently shown that they can't give an argument for their position, they can't change their views and they can't persuade others to change their views either. And the people who disagree with JimL and Tassman have no free will to stop posting and trying to persuade the unpersuadable. That proves that no-one here has free will.

                                /sarcasm
                                Max, if you had any idea what the argument was actually about, then you would not be under the idiotic impression that our position on this particular matter is that of no free will, the point being made is that if there is an omniscient creator, then there is no free will.

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