Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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Last edited by JimL; 01-22-2019, 07:52 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWhere do you get the idea that I don't try to understand? That your explanations don't make a lick of sense isn't my fault, Jim. This isn't anything new, we've been debating this issue ad nauseaum for a decade and there has never been a legit logical refutation of the argument against the co-existence of an eternally omniscient creator and free willed creation. If the creator knows the future of his creations even before he creates them, then there is simply no logical way that the creation could be free willed. I'm not calling you stupid, I'm saying that there must be some psychological reason that you are not able to see, or admit to, that logical fact.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou didn't make the choice until you made the choice. God just knew when you would make it.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostFree will is not undirected random decision making from a set of possible choices. It is the choice I choose based on whatever it is within me that causes me to make that choice. As long as it is not forced by prior causes, as long as divine beings are not making me choose whatever I choose, it is free will.
The predictability of my choice only factors into whether or not it is free will if the basis for those predictions is solely prior causes, or if divine agents are forcing it -> per the definition. You and JimL are assuming that Gods prediction MUST be based on prior causes. That is an assumption, you've not proven that to be the case.
Again, you are back to the random chance choice definition of free-will. I'm not going to make a random pick from the options presented. I'm going to make my choice. And my choice is defined by who I am, not the quantum state of some atom over there. God knowing what that choice is does not mean I did not make that choice of my own free will. I won't make another choice Tassman, not because God's knowledge prevents me, not because I can't. I won't make another choice because the thing that makes the choice is an integral part of who I am. And without an external influence to push me some other way, I have no reason to make a different choice. And that choice is free will because it is not forced by prior causes, nor is God or gods forcing me to make it.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostAnd the omniscient God also knew what my choice would be. If I chose differently God cannot be said to be omniscient. So, either God is not omniscient OR what I decide is foreordained and not a free-will choice.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostBecause it happened in the past, not in the future, which is the reason why you keep using the past to try and make your point.
This is very simple to understand JimL, the fact that you pretend not to grasp it, just shows that you are not willing to budge on your position no matter what argument anyone gives you. It is all a waste of time. If there was ever an example for someone unable to change it would be you. Very ironic considering this conversation.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostWeve been debating this issue for a decade? Who are you that ive been debating you a decade?
JimEnter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWe repeat it ad nauseaum in the hopes that it will finally sink in, but oddly enough it never seems to get through. Very odd actually, because it's really a rather simple concept to understand. Must be a mental wall against logic erected in defense of their religious beliefs. Interesting.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou mean you know because that is what Booth decided to do. Your knowledge depends on what Booth did.
So if you could step outside of time, or even go back before it happened, your knowledge would be the same and you would know that Booth will shoot Lincoln.
Because he did. He always did. And your knowledge depends on what he chose to do.
Because if he did choose NOT to shoot Lincoln, then that is what your knowledge would have always been.
Just because Booth will indeed shoot Lincoln in 1865 and always has, doesn't mean it wasn't a freewill action.
This is very simple to understand JimL, the fact that you pretend not to grasp it, just shows that you are not willing to budge on your position no matter what argument anyone gives you. It is all a waste of time. If there was ever an example for someone unable to change it would be you. Very ironic considering this conversation.
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Guys, JimL and Tassman are right. We don't have free will.
Just look at this thread, and the others on this topic over the years. JimL and Tassman have consistently shown that they can't give an argument for their position, they can't change their views and they can't persuade others to change their views either. And the people who disagree with JimL and Tassman have no free will to stop posting and trying to persuade the unpersuadable. That proves that no-one here has free will.
/sarcasm...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostGuys, JimL and Tassman are right. We don't have free will.
Just look at this thread, and the others on this topic over the years. JimL and Tassman have consistently shown that they can't give an argument for their position, they can't change their views and they can't persuade others to change their views either. And the people who disagree with JimL and Tassman have no free will to stop posting and trying to persuade the unpersuadable. That proves that no-one here has free will.
/sarcasm
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