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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Free will is the ability to choose what we wish to choose. If you agree Gods knowledge of what we choose is not determining the choice, then you are agreeing we have free will even though god knpws what we will choose.

    Jim
    No, that is not agreeing. Why is this so difficult for you people to understand. Foreknowledge is not the cause of our choices, it is evidence of the cause, it is evidence that the foreknower, and not us, is the cause. There are only two logical ways that the future could be eternally known, either that which we call the future already exists and can somehow be accessed by say an outside observer, or it was created to unfold according to the specifications of the foreknower. Remember, omniscience, with respect to an eternal knower, is itself eternal, the future of all that is created would be known in it's entirety before it is even created. It doesn't matter how many ideas you want to dream up, quantum retrocausal, or whatever, they all get trumped by omniscience, by eternal foreknowledge.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
      99.99% of God-fearing is a charade.
      Are you saying 99.9% of the people in the world that claim to belive in and follow God per some religious system are pretending?

      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Obviously.


        Not necessarily.


        Well you'll have to explain what exactly you mean by that. Again, it sounds as if you think the your future exists already and that you are just determined to follow the path already laid out for you. I don't think you believe that, so you need to be clearer.
        OK so imagine if you will, that all of time does exist. The past and the future. From your current view of "now" - January 2019, you can remember every choice you made up to this point. You know you did them of your own free will and at each moment you could have chosen something else but did not. So from this point in time, your past is fixed and all choices are made. Your knowledge is a result of all of your free will decisions. Your past is a result of all of your freewill decisions. Yet it is fixed.

        To yourself of 1980, everything previous to 1980 is the past and is fixed. But everything from 1980 to 2019 is the future. He has no idea what he is going to choose. But you of 2019 do know. Because to you it already happened. So the 1980 you will go on, through the years making those exact freewill choices the you of 2019 already know about. Because if he did something different, then that is what you would know in 2019, right?

        Well, YOUR future, the time after 2019, is just as "fixed" to the you of 2030. He knows what you are going to do, because to him you already did it. You will do exactly what he knows, and you will do it of your own free will. Because if you did something different, then that is what the you of 2030 knows.

        Your future is his past. So the future is just more past that hasn't happened to you yet. All decisions are free will, and that is what time 'records' and becomes "fixed" in the overall time stream.
        Last edited by Sparko; 01-14-2019, 09:58 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          No, that is not agreeing. Why is this so difficult for you people to understand. Foreknowledge is not the cause of our choices, it is evidence of the cause, it is evidence that the foreknower, and not us, is the cause. There are only two logical ways that the future could be eternally known, either that which we call the future already exists and can somehow be accessed by say an outside observer, or it was created to unfold according to the specifications of the foreknower. Remember, omniscience, with respect to an eternal knower, is itself eternal, the future of all that is created would be known in it's entirety before it is even created. It doesn't matter how many ideas you want to dream up, quantum retrocausal, or whatever, they all get trumped by omniscience, by eternal foreknowledge.
          There is absolutely nothing that you or I know that can speak with any sort of credibility as to the limits on the set of possible methods availble to an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent non corporial being to know what you or i will or wont do at a future time.

          Jim
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            99.99% of God-fearing is a charade.
            And 100% of Firstfloor's responses here are beetle dung.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              Are you saying 99.9% of the people in the world that claim to belive in and follow God per some religious system are pretending?

              Jim
              I was relying on firstfloor’s guts. Turns out to be just wind.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                everywhere in time does exist. And so does free will because just like looking at the past which can't be changed but was made of free will decisions, the future is made up of free will decisions.
                Observation:

                If God can see the future because he is "external to time" in some way, such that for God the future has already happened and he knows what free will choices were/will be made, how does that work with God intervening and making changes?

                If God can see the choices made in, say, 2020, then he can also see himself interceding on behalf of supplicants but also see their subsequent free will choices, which will be based at least partly on those intercessions. So God can not only see time as a whole, but also change it, despite his changes having already taken place from God's point-of-view so the timeline was always already changed (or never unchanged).

                Sp although the "God is external to time" idea might be able to reconcile our free will with God's omniscience, but how do you reconcile God's free will with his own omniscience, given that God will know what actions God took?


                *year chosen for punish reasons
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Already done, Jimmy.

                  P1: God foreknows that I will choose X.
                  P2: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary that I choose X.
                  P3: If it is necessary that I choose X then I have no freewill.
                  P4: There are possible worlds where I could choose not-X.
                  Are there possible worlds in which God foreknows you will choose X and you could choose not-X?
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                  MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                  mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ignorant Roy View Post
                    Are there possible worlds in which God foreknows you will choose X and you could choose not-X?
                    Already addressed:

                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    In a possible world where I choose not-X then God will foreknow that I would choose not-X. On the other hand...

                    P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will freely choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
                    P2: God foreknows I will freely choose X.
                    C1: Therefore, I will freely choose X.

                    Note that this is not saying that I must necessarily choose X.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      Observation:

                      If God can see the future because he is "external to time" in some way, such that for God the future has already happened and he knows what free will choices were/will be made, how does that work with God intervening and making changes?

                      If God can see the choices made in, say, 2020, then he can also see himself interceding on behalf of supplicants but also see their subsequent free will choices, which will be based at least partly on those intercessions. So God can not only see time as a whole, but also change it, despite his changes having already taken place from God's point-of-view so the timeline was always already changed (or never unchanged).

                      Sp although the "God is external to time" idea might be able to reconcile our free will with God's omniscience, but how do you reconcile God's free will with his own omniscience, given that God will know what actions God took?


                      *year chosen for punish reasons

                      As a molinist I think God has middle knowledge so he can see what would have happened if things were done differently. He can see how things would have happened if he didn't step in so he steps in and thing happen the way that they "did"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        Observation:

                        If God can see the future because he is "external to time" in some way, such that for God the future has already happened and he knows what free will choices were/will be made, how does that work with God intervening and making changes?

                        If God can see the choices made in, say, 2020, then he can also see himself interceding on behalf of supplicants but also see their subsequent free will choices, which will be based at least partly on those intercessions. So God can not only see time as a whole, but also change it, despite his changes having already taken place from God's point-of-view so the timeline was always already changed (or never unchanged).

                        Sp although the "God is external to time" idea might be able to reconcile our free will with God's omniscience, but how do you reconcile God's free will with his own omniscience, given that God will know what actions God took?


                        *year chosen for punish reasons
                        That was my 'next thing to think about' along these lines Roy

                        I'll try to post some of my initial thoughts on that later today.

                        Jim
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          OK so imagine if you will, that all of time does exist. The past and the future. From your current view of "now" - January 2019, you can remember every choice you made up to this point. You know you did them of your own free will and at each moment you could have chosen something else but did not. So from this point in time, your past is fixed and all choices are made. Your knowledge is a result of all of your free will decisions. Your past is a result of all of your freewill decisions. Yet it is fixed.

                          To yourself of 1980, everything previous to 1980 is the past and is fixed. But everything from 1980 to 2019 is the future. He has no idea what he is going to choose. But you of 2019 do know. Because to you it already happened. So the 1980 you will go on, through the years making those exact freewill choices the you of 2019 already know about. Because if he did something different, then that is what you would know in 2019, right?

                          Well, YOUR future, the time after 2019, is just as "fixed" to the you of 2030. He knows what you are going to do, because to him you already did it. You will do exactly what he knows, and you will do it of your own free will. Because if you did something different, then that is what the you of 2030 knows.

                          Your future is his past. So the future is just more past that hasn't happened to you yet. All decisions are free will, and that is what time 'records' and becomes "fixed" in the overall time stream.
                          Sparko, you're confused. If there is a you that exists in the future, then that means the future already exists, it means, as you began your thought experiment, that all of time exist. There is a you in the past "now" a you in the present "now" and the you in the future "now." The present you would not be doing any travelling through time. What you are describing is the B-theory of time in which you already exist at every instant along the timeline of your history. But again, if there is a you already in 2025, or an external observer who can observe you in 2025, then 2025 already exists and the you of the present isn't going to change that future.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            There is absolutely nothing that you or I know that can speak with any sort of credibility as to the limits on the set of possible methods availble to an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent non corporial being to know what you or i will or wont do at a future time.
                            That's not an argument Jim, it doesn't refute what I said, it is simply a wave of the hand. What you need to do is to show me where the logic of my argument is flawed.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              That's not an argument Jim, it doesn't refute what I said, it is simply a wave of the hand. What you need to do is to show me where the logic of my argument is flawed.
                              It most certainly does refute what you said. What you said is bald, unsubstantiated, assertion. And unlike your assertion, what I said is a simple fact. Look, you can't even prove one way or the other if God even exists, and yet you will assert you know exactly how many ways there are for Him to know the future if He does? Please!


                              Jim
                              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-14-2019, 08:40 PM.
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Nope.

                                P1: God foreknows that I will choose X.
                                P2: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary that I choose X.
                                P3: If it is necessary that I choose X then I have no freewill.
                                P4: There are possible worlds where I could choose not-X.
                                C1: Therefore, God can foreknow that I will choose X without it being necessary that I choose X.
                                C2: Therefore, I have freewill.
                                Nope, that doesn’t work. If God in his omniscience knows what you will choose in any world then it is inevitable you will choose it, otherwise God is not omniscient.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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