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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Free will is the ability to choose what we wish to choose. If you agree Gods knowledge of what we choose is not determining the choice, then you are agreeing we have free will even though god knpws what we will choose.
    What we will choose has been eternally known by the omniscient God since before you and I existed; our “choices” are therefore inevitable.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
      Nope, that doesn’t work. If God in his omniscience knows what you will choose in any world then it is inevitable you will choose it, otherwise God is not omniscient.
      I'm not sure why you think there is a difference between the words "inevitable" and "necessary". My argument can just as easily read:

      P1: God foreknows that I will choose X.
      P2: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is inevitable that I choose X.
      P3: If it is inevitable that I choose X then I have no freewill.
      P4: There are possible worlds where I could choose not-X.
      C1: Therefore, God can foreknow that I will choose X without it being inevitable that I choose X.
      C2: Therefore, I have freewill.

      Your response to this is to basically say, "Nuh-uh!" which is hardly a convincing rebuttal. We could even add a third conclusion if you like:

      C3: Therefore, my choosing X logically precedes God's knowledge that I will choose X.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        As a molinist I think God has middle knowledge so he can see what would have happened if things were done differently. He can see how things would have happened if he didn't step in so he steps in and thing happen the way that they "did"
        Has God an option to step in, given that God can see what happened?
        Last edited by Roy; 01-15-2019, 06:56 AM.
        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
        MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

        mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Already addressed:
          So your logic should proceed:

          P1: God foreknows that I will choose X.
          P2: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary that I choose X.
          P3: If it is necessary that I choose X then I have no freewill.
          P4: There are no possible worlds where God foreknows that I will choose X and I could choose not-X.
          C1: Therefore, if God foreknows that I will choose X, I will choose X.
          C2: If God foreknows that I will choose X, I cannot choose not-X.
          C2: Therefore, I have no freewill.

          Or the shorter simpler version without the unnecessary introduction of possible worlds that contradict earlier premises:

          P1: God foreknows I will choose X.
          C1: Therefore, I will choose X.
          C2: Therefore, I have no freewill.

          I'm not sure why you think there is a difference between the words "inevitable" and "necessary".
          Excellent.

          Then:
          P1: God foreknows I will choose X.
          C1: Therefore, it is inevitable that I will choose X.
          C2: Therefore it is necessary that I choose X.
          C3: Therefore, I have no freewill.
          Last edited by Roy; 01-15-2019, 07:12 AM.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
          MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

          mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            It most certainly does refute what you said. What you said is bald, unsubstantiated, assertion.
            No, actually what I said is based on logic, in other words knowledge of the future means that the future is fixed, and so you, from the time before you even existed, can not change what your future will be, and if you can not change what your future will be, then you don't have free will. No, you haven't refuted that at all.


            And unlike your assertion, what I said is a simple fact.
            Name one fact that you have argued.

            Look, you can't even prove one way or the other if God even exists, and yet you will assert you know exactly how many ways there are for Him to know the future if He does? Please!
            I know what omniscience means and, apparently, it would seem, you do not understand what you mean by omniscience. If your belief is true, that an omniscient god exists, then your lifes entire history is dependent on that omniscience. Understand what omniscience of the future means, then maybe you'll catch on.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ignorant Roy View Post
              So your logic should proceed:

              P1: God foreknows that I will choose X.
              P2: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary that I choose X.
              P3: If it is necessary that I choose X then I have no freewill.
              P4: There are no possible worlds where God foreknows that I will choose X and I could choose not-X.
              C1: Therefore, if God foreknows that I will choose X, I will choose X.
              C2: If God foreknows that I will choose X, I cannot choose not-X.
              C2: Therefore, I have no freewill.

              Or the shorter simpler version without the unnecessary introduction of possible worlds that contradict earlier premises:

              P1: God foreknows I will choose X.
              C1: Therefore, I will choose X.
              C2: Therefore, I have no freewill.

              Excellent.

              Then:
              P1: God foreknows I will choose X.
              C1: Therefore, it is inevitable that I will choose X.
              C2: Therefore it is necessary that I choose X.
              C3: Therefore, I have no freewill.
              Um... no... you can't just arbitrarily jam the two arguments together and mix up the premises like that because they're arguing completely different things. This is why you ended up with nonsense that basically reads, "I have no freewill; therefore, I have no freewill."

              It works better in this arrangement where one argument leads into the next:

              P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will freely choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
              P2: God foreknows I will freely choose X.
              C1: Therefore, I will freely choose X.

              P3: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X.
              P4: If it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X then I have no freewill.
              P5: There are possible worlds where I could choose not-X.
              C2: Therefore, God can foreknow that I will choose X without it being necessary/inevitable that I choose X.
              C3: Therefore, I have freewill.
              C4: Therefore, my choosing X logically precedes God's knowledge that I will choose X.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Sparko, you're confused. If there is a you that exists in the future, then that means the future already exists, it means, as you began your thought experiment, that all of time exist. There is a you in the past "now" a you in the present "now" and the you in the future "now." The present you would not be doing any travelling through time. What you are describing is the B-theory of time in which you already exist at every instant along the timeline of your history. But again, if there is a you already in 2025, or an external observer who can observe you in 2025, then 2025 already exists and the you of the present isn't going to change that future.
                That's what I said. My first sentence: "OK so imagine if you will, that all of time does exist."

                JimL, I think Oxmix is right, you either don't want to understand the opposing views to your's, or you are incapable of it. Nobody is asking you to accept their view, just understand it and acknowledge it, instead of acting like a moron and burning straw man arguments and making idiotic objections.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  What we will choose has been eternally known by the omniscient God since before you and I existed; our “choices” are therefore inevitable.
                  Your past choices were inevitable from your current point of view. Because if they were different you would remember them being different and then those choices would be the "inevitable" ones. Yet your past inevitable choices were done freely.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    Has God an option to step in, given that God can see what happened?
                    Let's try an example where God stepped in. God knew that if he did not send Jesus to save us that all mankind would be lost. So he stepped in, sent Jesus to die for our sins so that we could be saved. There was never a world where Jesus didn't come, but God did know what such a world would be like. So he 'always' planned to step in.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      So your logic should proceed:

                      P1: God foreknows that I will choose X.
                      P2: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary that I choose X.
                      P3: If it is necessary that I choose X then I have no freewill.
                      P4: There are no possible worlds where God foreknows that I will choose X and I could choose not-X.
                      C1: Therefore, if God foreknows that I will choose X, I will choose X.
                      C2: If God foreknows that I will choose X, I cannot choose not-X.
                      C2: Therefore, I have no freewill.

                      Or the shorter simpler version without the unnecessary introduction of possible worlds that contradict earlier premises:

                      P1: God foreknows I will choose X.
                      C1: Therefore, I will choose X.
                      C2: Therefore, I have no freewill.

                      Excellent.

                      Then:
                      P1: God foreknows I will choose X.
                      C1: Therefore, it is inevitable that I will choose X.
                      C2: Therefore it is necessary that I choose X.
                      C3: Therefore, I have no freewill.
                      You haven't shown that just because God knows you will choose X that you aren't choosing X freely without coercion.

                      If I went back in time to April 13, 1865, I would "foreknow" that Booth would choose to shoot President Lincoln the next day. Me knowing it doesn't make Booth do it. But he will do it because if he doesn't, then that would be the memory I would have brought back with me from the future. My knowledge is based on what Booth will do. It doesn't mean he has no free will.

                      C1 Therefore I will freely choose X
                      C3 Therefore I have freewill.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        What we will choose has been eternally known by the omniscient God since before you and I existed; our “choices” are therefore inevitable.
                        "inevitable": Our choices are our choices. If I know you will eat chocolate if it is given to you, I'm not making you eat chocolate, you are. I just happen to know you like chocolate and will eat it if someone gives it to you. Free will is not compromised if I or anyone else knows what you will do. Again, you have this 'random number generator' philosophy around what free-will is. That is NOT what it is. free-will just means I get to choose. That choice will be based on what I value and who I am. It doesn't mean I'm going to randomly decide something that goes against everything I believe in.


                        Jim
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          No, actually what I said is based on logic, in other words knowledge of the future means that the future is fixed, and so you, from the time before you even existed, can not change what your future will be, and if you can not change what your future will be, then you don't have free will. No, you haven't refuted that at all.



                          Name one fact that you have argued.


                          I know what omniscience means and, apparently, it would seem, you do not understand what you mean by omniscience. If your belief is true, that an omniscient god exists, then your lifes entire history is dependent on that omniscience. Understand what omniscience of the future means, then maybe you'll catch on.
                          Logic based on false or incomplete assumptions is nothing more than assumption and therefore useless. The problem you are having is that you don't understand that you don't know enough to make a credible logical argument about how God can or can't know the future.


                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Um... no... you can't just arbitrarily jam the two arguments together and mix up the premises like that because they're arguing completely different things. This is why you ended up with nonsense that basically reads, "I have no freewill; therefore, I have no freewill."

                            It works better in this arrangement where one argument leads into the next:

                            P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will freely choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
                            P2: God foreknows I will freely choose X.
                            C1: Therefore, I will freely choose X.
                            You're calling me ignorant, but you haven't realised that including the unnecessary word "freely" in your 'logic' is assuming your conclusion.

                            Nor have you realised that your retreat into considering possible worlds only changes the conclusion to
                            Cx: There are possible worlds in which I have free will, but this isn't one of them.

                            Here's a sunset of your premises/conclusions with the only change being the removal of the presumptive "freely". The final conclusion is left as an exercise for the reader.

                            P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
                            P2: God foreknows I will choose X.
                            C1: Therefore, I will choose X.
                            P3: If it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X then I have no freewill.
                            C2: ...?

                            QED
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                            MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                            mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              You haven't shown that just because God knows you will choose X that you aren't choosing X freely without coercion.
                              I don't need to - MM has said

                              P3: If it is inevitable that I choose X then I have no freewill.

                              If I went back in time to April 13, 1865, I would "foreknow" that Booth would choose to shoot President Lincoln the next day. Me knowing it doesn't make Booth do it. But he will do it because if he doesn't, then that would be the memory I would have brought back with me from the future. My knowledge is based on what Booth will do. It doesn't mean he has no free will.
                              It does if MM's premise above is correct. The reason why Booth shoots is irrelevant. If there is any reason why it is inevitable that he shoots - and your memory would be such a reason - then that premise leads to Booth having no free will.

                              I'm glad you chose Booth/Lincoln not Oswald/Kennedy
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                              MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ignorant Roy View Post
                                You're calling me ignorant, but you haven't realised that including the unnecessary word "freely" in your 'logic' is assuming your conclusion.

                                Nor have you realised that your retreat into considering possible worlds only changes the conclusion to
                                Cx: There are possible worlds in which I have free will, but this isn't one of them.

                                Here's a sunset of your premises/conclusions with the only change being the removal of the presumptive "freely". The final conclusion is left as an exercise for the reader.

                                P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
                                P2: God foreknows I will choose X.
                                C1: Therefore, I will choose X.
                                P3: If it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X then I have no freewill.
                                C2: ...?

                                QED
                                Um... this:

                                P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will freely choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
                                P2: God foreknows I will freely choose X.
                                C1: Therefore, I will freely choose X.

                                does not assume the conclusion. But, sure, we can leave off the word "freely" if it makes your little heart happy.

                                P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
                                P2: God foreknows I will choose X.
                                C1: Therefore, I will choose X.

                                P3: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X.
                                P4: If it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X then I have no freewill.
                                P5: There are possible worlds where I could choose not-X.
                                C2: Therefore, God can foreknow that I will choose X without it being necessary/inevitable that I choose X.
                                C3: Therefore, I have freewill.
                                C4: Therefore, my choosing X logically precedes God's knowledge that I will choose X.

                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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